Author Topic: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest  (Read 3068 times)

rightleft22

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OMG the absurdity.

I’ve noted the stories about Trumps and Queen’s visit but didn’t give it much thought. This morning more headlines, Trump says he was early, I thought WTF, is this really a news story… Apparently it is.  So I did a search what really happened during this visit, wondering if anyone bothered to check and if it was it possible to discern the truth. 

I think the following article by Patricia Treble, was well researched and should put an end to it. Please put an end to it.

It makes sense why Trump made the claims he did about being early and the uniqueness of the inspection. As for the broach, really, how one person with an agenda could make something so meaningless have legs… absurd

If those that do not like Trump want to push back against him, they are going to have to do a better job of not falling for and propagating such stupid stories.  It only makes Trump world view stronger.

https://www.macleans.ca/royalty/when-it-comes-to-the-queen-and-donald-trump-the-facts-still-matter/

Seriati

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Re: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2018, 01:30:31 PM »
Fascinating read, though I could have done without the unsubstantiated digs the author threw in on Trump's truthfulness generally.  They seem to have only been included to "prove" the author was on the right side of the anti-Trump aisle.

Fenring

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Re: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2018, 02:04:08 PM »
I see that sort of anti-Trump brigading on my social media quite often. It's either made-up stories, stating theories as if they are facts, or else taking an actual story and being dishonest about its details. The latter is probably the most common thing I see, but it almost doesn't matter because if the general atmosphere is to find any and all excuse to call Trump evil the ends always justify the means.

When people I know post angry messages about Trump accompanied by a link, I always read the article to see whether they're accurately citing the thing. That's rarely the case, unfortunately. The other day, for instance, I saw an angry FB message that said (paraphrase) "The GOP would rather a child remain have no parents than be adopted by a same-sex couple." The link itself showed a caption of a Tweet, which said "Republicans vote to ban gays and lesbians from adopting." When I clicked on the article itself it was about the ruling that the Federal Government, or States that receive federal funding, are forbidden from cracking down on private adoption organizations that won't cater to same-sex couples if it's on religious grounds. So the initial post, and the Tweet it referred to, were both mis-statements of the actual ruling and naturally wilfully ignorant about the issue at stake. Mind you this was about the GOP and not Trump, but I see regular mis-statements about the GOP, Trump, and about the DNC as well.

Regarding the adoption story, while the content here that would irk many liberals, the fact of the matter is that honest transmission of facts seems to not be at the top of many people's agenda. They would rather 'further their cause' or throw fuel on the fire than seek the truth. And 'news agencies' pick up on this big time. Why not serve up what the people seem to want - clickbait to fuel vitriol.

Higher points awarded to the brooch story, though, for creativity in finding the lamest way possible to try to skewer Trump.

scifibum

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Re: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2018, 02:11:32 PM »
Fascinating read, though I could have done without the unsubstantiated digs the author threw in on Trump's truthfulness generally.  They seem to have only been included to "prove" the author was on the right side of the anti-Trump aisle.


It's funny that you would say unsubstantiated, since there's a link in the story to some pretty exhaustive substantiation.

You shouldn't really be spared the discomfort of being reminded that Trump is constant liar.

TheDrake

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Re: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2018, 02:31:37 PM »
I had to dig to find these details, they meant nothing to me at the time. Even CNN at the time said he wasn't late:

"And while the Queen appeared to inspect her watch while waiting for the Trumps, they were not late, arriving at 5 p.m. on the dot."

I can't find any stories about a brooch on CNN, and they are the most anti-trump mainstream news source I can think of. I don't doubt there were memes of this being passed around - snopes marks it False, so it was out there as a rumor or speculation. Snopes said HuffPo ran it. The strangest thing about that article? There's a blog and online community that does nothing but speculate and comment on the Queen's jewelry... with gems like this:

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It's the Sapphire Jubilee Snowflake Brooch! A special gift from Canada presented to Her Maj last year and one I, like many of you, have been eager to see in action. These patterned dresses do a number on brooch detail (we know that from 99% of her audiences); in this case, the blue at the center of the piece has practically disappeared. But it's perfectly sized to her preferences, and I hope it's the beginning of many appearances.

The review is typical Trumpian lack of precision with words - and this in an official prepared statement. He somehow had to inflate 66 years to 70 years, for instance. Is it important? Not really, except as part of the general backdrop on various and sundry Trump claims of "historic" and "most important" and "best in history". He couldn't be content with just doing the review and not making it about him.

Regarding the headlines attached to stories - yes, they have become Trumpian in their own right amplifying a modest curb on the ability of some same-sex couples in some states from adopting at some agencies. It can still be wrong, you can still complain, you can still draw attention to it without foaming at the mouth with some outrageous click-bait.

Seriati

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Re: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2018, 02:36:23 PM »
I followed the link, it's literal garbage.  Many of the "lies" are just differences of opinion.

Here's the first:

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"Looking more & more like the Trump Campaign for President was illegally being spied upon (surveillance) for the political gain of Crooked Hillary Clinton and the DNC."

Source: Twitter

in fact: There is still no evidence of this. And the surveillance Trump was complaining about on this day, of Carter Page, only began after Page left the campaign.

That's not remotely a lie.  It does look more and more like certain people at the FBI got a warrant of questionable merit to spy on a member of a campaign.  Keep in mind, this is after Trump said his campaign was bugged by Obama, and in fact in latter turned out that members of his campaign were in fact spied upon, including while in Trump tower.

It's literally only "interpretation" and opinion to claim the facts don't support what Trump said.

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"Congratulations to @JudicialWatch and @TomFitton on being successful in getting the Carter Page FISA documents. As usual they are ridiculously heavily redacted but confirm with little doubt that the Department of 'Justice' and FBI misled the courts."

Source: Twitter

in fact: The documents do not show that the Department of Justice and the FBI misled the courts in seeking a warrant to surveil a former Trump adviser, Carter Page. In fact, the newly released documents proved that a Republican memo about the documents was misleading when it accused the Department of Justice and FBI of misleading the courts. As the New York Times reported: "The Republican memo issued in February said the FBI had failed to 'disclose or reference the role of the DNC, Clinton campaign or any party/campaign in funding Steele's efforts, even though the political origins of the Steele dossier were then known to senior DOJ and FBI officials.' But Democrats at the time contended that the court had been told that the research had politically motivated origins. The application contains a page-length explanation that does alert the court that the person who commissioned Mr. Steele's research was "likely looking for information to discredit" Mr. Trump's campaign. It goes on to explain why, notwithstanding Mr. Steele's 'reason for conducting the research,' the FBI believed it was credible. Republicans had also faulted the application for not explicitly identifying Mrs. Clinton's campaign and the Democratic National Committee by name. But that criticism ignored the fact that law enforcement officials were following a general policy not to name Americans, even referring to Mr. Trump only as 'Candidate #1' in renewal applications despite noting that he was now the president-elect and then the president. David Kris, an expert on the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act who served in the George W. Bush and Obama administrations, dismissed the notion that the intelligence court judges had been misled. 'Now we can see that the footnote disclosing Steele's possible bias takes up more than a full page in the applications, so there is literally no way the FISA Court could have missed it,' he wrote on the blog Lawfare."

Which is again, blatantly misrepresenting what occurred.  The facts on the ground literally support what he claimed.  As released it is absolutely clear that the full backing of the Steele report was not disclosed, though known to the FBI/DOJ, and that is literally enough to conclude the FBI/DOJ mislead the Court.

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The Rigged Witch Hunt, headed by the 13 Angry Democrats (and now 4 more have been added, one who worked directly for Obama W.H.), seems intent on damaging the Republican Party's chances in the November Election."

Source: Twitter

in fact: By "rigged witch hunt," Trump means special counsel Robert Mueller's investigation into his campaign's relationship with Russia. The investigation is being run by a Republican, Mueller himself. Though Mueller has indeed filled his team with Democrats, it is false to say the investigation is "headed" by these Democrats.

3rd Item.  Again, opinion that matches the facts as well as the opinion cited as fact, that's hanging it's hat on the dumbest part of the claim - ie that Mueller is not a Democrat.  That's not a substantive rebuttal, it's nonsense cited to add to the total.  it's literally also the case that people make those kinds of claims in that manner all the time.  It touches nothing about the substance that the investigation seems targetted at harming Republican chances in the midterm than it does about actually revealing anything connected to its actual mission.

Literally the first 3 are wrong, and so are a bunch after that.  All it is, is one guy's opinion that he disagrees with another guy's opinion. 

cherrypoptart

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Re: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2018, 07:25:45 PM »
A lot of times in the military for medical appointments if you are not 15 minutes early you are considered as being 15 minutes late. Is there maybe something like that for the queen so if you are not early you are considered late?

velcro

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Re: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2018, 10:06:08 PM »
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unsubstantiated digs the author threw in on Trump's truthfulness generally.

Substantiated.

TheDrake

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Re: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2018, 09:32:30 AM »
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He claimed on Fox News earlier this year that the WTO was set up "to benefit everybody but us", adding: "We lose the lawsuits, almost all of the lawsuits in the WTO."

However, some analysis shows the US wins about 90% when it is the complainant and loses about the same percentage when it is complained against.

You can decide if this is deliberate lying, if he was only talking about suits where the US was defending, or if he's just too stupid to know the real number. But it is clearly false and misleading.

Being wrong isn't so bad, its the fact that when confronted with it, Trump doubles down, continues to repeat it, or rarely he sulks and throws up his hands. (I read it on the internet)

rightleft22

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Re: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2018, 01:15:37 PM »
Interesting discussion I saw on the CBC about the frustration about negotiating with Trump - that for Trump facts don't matter, or he will forces one "fact" and disregard others making any issue seam bad or the worst ever, or US being taken advantage of.... Negotiation by truthful hyperbole is in my opinion negotiation in bad faith.
For example the 300% tariff on dairy products that Trump likes to bring up in regards to Canada. The reality is the tariff is on 10% of dairy products the US exports and a response to the US subsidizing US Dairy farmers creating a unfair advantage and surplus the industry wants to dump into Canada.  Trump also doesn't mention the tariffs the US places Canadian dairy products.

So the facts of the US dairy subsidizes leading to overproduction and tariffs on Canadian dairy products don't matter. 300% is a big number and a great sound bit/tweet.

rightleft22

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Re: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2018, 01:59:00 PM »

In remarks Trump told Bloomberg News reporters on Thursday, according to a source, that he is not making any compromises at all in the talks with Canada — but that he cannot say this publicly because “it’s going to be so insulting they’re not going to be able to make a deal.”

Trump said, according to the source, that the possible deal with Canada would be “totally on our terms.” He suggested he was scaring the Canadians into submission by repeatedly threatening to impose tariffs.
“Off the record, Canada’s working their ass off. And every time we have a problem with a point, I just put up a picture of a Chevrolet Impala,”  The Impala is produced at the General Motors plant in Oshawa, Ontario.


Seriati

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Re: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2018, 02:06:52 PM »
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unsubstantiated digs the author threw in on Trump's truthfulness generally.

Substantiated.

Not substantiated.

I followed your link, and then I followed their links to their data base.  So let's go through some of their list.

1. 110 times, Trump said some form of there was no collusion, and collusion isn't a crime.  Nothing about that has been shown to be a lie, nor did they substantiate that there was any collusion.  Instead, they claim it's a lie, because they assert a different crime (that also hasn't been shown) could be enough like "collusion" (which isn't a crime) to make it "misleading."

2.  Next claim on the page.  "The globalist Koch Brothers, who have become a total joke in real Republican circles, are against Strong Borders and Powerful Trade. I never sought their support because I don’t need their money or bad ideas.”  They claim this is lie because they claim a Politico article showed Trump did seek their support.  What that has to do with the first sentence?  Anyone's guess.  What it has to do with not need their money or bad ideas?  Anyone's guess.  So were they correct about the tiny piece they challenged - whether Trump sought their support?  Not clearly, Politico flagged that the Koch organization declined to sell the Trump campaign data, and rejected a request to let him speak at an organized rally.  Is that the same thing as glad handing them to get them to donate?  Not really, but reasonable people might disagree.  How is this on a list of "lies" that are "substantiated"?

3.  Next claim on the page:  "One of the reasons we need Great Border Security is that Mexico’s murder rate in 2017 increased by 27% to 31,174 people killed, a record! The Democrats want Open Borders. I want Maximum Border Security and respect for ICE and our great Law Enforcement Professionals!" is a lie because "Undocumented migration from Mexico has been negative for 10 years. More people are going back to Mexico than are entering the United States."  That response has absolutely nothing to do with any of the claims he made.   I mean literally zero.  No part of it is responsive to any of the claims he made.  Mexican murder rate being up?  Widely documented fact.  That he wants maximum border security and respect for ICE?  Widely documented fact.  That Dems want open borders?  Perfectly legitimate opinion (though you don't have to agree with it).    This one is so ridiculous.

4.  Skipping down.  "Unemployment recently fell to the lowest level in a half a century."  Their response?  "This is very wrong. The June unemployment rate of 4 percent was up from 3.8 percent in May."  If the May rate was 3.8 and that was a 50 year low, that would meet the text.  Claiming a June bump is the "true" measure is petty BS.  But again, it's not clear which measure Trump referred to, yet they picked the one they wanted to show.  Meanwhile you can find a fair bit of reporting showing that we are seeing unemployment rates that in some demographics are the best recorded (actual records don't go back as far as we'd like here) and others are close.  Nothing about this was false.

I really don't feel the need to go through 2000 "documented" lies, when four of the first 5 are don't qualify.

Seriati

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Re: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2018, 02:12:48 PM »
Here's a gem:

"Since the election we have added 3.7 million new jobs" response:  "Trump cites how many jobs have been created since the election, but not since the beginning of his administration. Just over 3.2 million jobs have been added to the economy since Trump took office."

Wow, what a lie.  Trump said "since the election" and it's a "lie" because Trump said since the election.  Even if you want to give them a benefit of the doubt, that there is anything of merit in pointing out that difference - which only exists if you ignore what TRUMP ACTUALLY SAID, you'd have to find a way to discount the employer optimism that occurred upon realizing they wouldn't be stuck under 4 more years of job killing regulation.

In fact, the fact checkers here are bigger liars for calling this a lie than Trump is.

The only reason this database exists is to pretend to have authority on ones side.

TheDrake

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Re: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2018, 02:56:48 PM »
I agree. A lot of the listed stuff falls under opinion, etc. This is what they call "misleading", which you could roast almost any politician on.

Some of them are logically bizarre, like the claim that Mexico's murder rate correlates with a need to have maximum border protection. The US murder rate by Mexican nationals would be more logically defensible. But this is challenging his conclusion, it doesn't make anything a lie.

He certainly gets numbers wrong so often that he should just stop quoting any number. He has the mind of a steel sieve. I can empathize, I'm pretty bad at remembering a number also. If I'm reporting a number, verbally or written, I make sure it is written down and checked. I don't wing it. He probably calls a quarter pounder a half pounder. It's like watching someone doing a numerical mad-lib.

velcro

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Re: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2018, 01:14:13 PM »
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I really don't feel the need to go through 2000 "documented" lies, when four of the first 5 are don't qualify.

I absolutely believe you when you say you don't feel the need.

There are actually 4229 items in the link I supplied.  Maybe all of those are accurate.  Do you care to check those?

But let's give you the benefit of the doubt (which you claimed I never do :) ).  Whatever source you used had 2000 documented "lies".  You think only one of 5 were actually lies.  So if we extrapolate, we have documented only 400 lies from Trump in a year and a half.

Substantiated, by your own evaluation.

But, in fact, the link I supplied does not call them all lies.  It says they are "false or misleading claims".

The statement my link substantiates is this:
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Donald Trump is known for his verbose dishonesty

False or misleading claims are dishonest if the speaker knows they are false or misleading.  So Trump is either dishonest or woefully ignorant.  I'll let you pick. But he went to the best schools, and has the best words, so I go with dishonest.

I would say 400 lies, or 4000 "false or misleading claims" substantiates the statement above. 

How many hundreds of false or misleading claims must be documented before you consider someone dishonest?  I'd like to know.

I am happy to address the following in your evaluation of the veracity of Trump's statements:
-logical flaws
-items removed from sources to change the context
-embedded lies that were not addressed
-opinion stated by Trump as fact, then excused because it is opinion

Let me know, and we can start a new thread.

D.W.

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Re: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2018, 01:32:57 PM »
To be fair, I'd have stopped reading after those 5 and figured the site was a waste of my time as well.  And that's as someone who agrees with the overall premise of Trump = liar.     ::)

Seriati

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Re: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2018, 05:19:00 PM »
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I really don't feel the need to go through 2000 "documented" lies, when four of the first 5 are don't qualify.

I absolutely believe you when you say you don't feel the need.

There are actually 4229 items in the link I supplied.  Maybe all of those are accurate.  Do you care to check those?

I have followed the links you provided (this is the second time correct).  It's that link that has "documented lies" that are not lies but rather differences of opinion, or in some cases just disputations.  Are you asking that I check your links more than once, or on different days?

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But let's give you the benefit of the doubt (which you claimed I never do :) ).  Whatever source you used had 2000 documented "lies".  You think only one of 5 were actually lies.  So if we extrapolate, we have documented only 400 lies from Trump in a year and a half.

I followed your links.  Nothing I looked at on the first page was an actual lie.  I did not find 5 lies, I did not five 5 out of x to be lies.  If we extrapolate from what I actually found, we'd have zero lies.  That's not actually correct, we all know their are lies out there, but the lists are just there to put up big numbers and not out of any kind of real process for vetting lies.

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Substantiated, by your own evaluation.

Not sure how you think not finding any actual lies in the list, and concluding its a waste of time to read more than the first 10 or so is a "substantiation."

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How many hundreds of false or misleading claims must be documented before you consider someone dishonest?  I'd like to know.

I already find Trump dishonest, he's a braggart that exaggerates.  The problem is that I find his opponents to be even bigger liars and quite frankly information manipulators, people who lie and mislead to deceive.  That's primarily what your list showed.  People who claim that someone else is a liar or misleader because the author disagrees with them.
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I am happy to address the following in your evaluation of the veracity of Trump's statements:

Why don't you instead address some of the fake lies from the list, or even the rebuttal that I posted.  Why we should rely on a "source" that is so misleading.

Mynnion

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Re: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2018, 09:51:05 PM »
Anyone remember the huge uproar when Obama "Lied" about keeping your doctor with the ACA?  One lie and those on the right felt he should be held accountable.  Funny how the regard for the truth seems to have vanished under Trump.

velcro

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Re: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2018, 02:43:39 PM »
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I really don't feel the need to go through 2000 "documented" lies, when four of the first 5 are don't qualify.

I assumed that when you say "four of the first 5 are [sic] don't qualify", that the fifth is somehow different from the four that don't qualify as lies, i.e. it is an actual lie.  Apparently those words mean something else to you, since you now claim that nothing was lies, i.e. five of the first 5 don't qualify.  If that was a typo, just say it and we can move on.

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Are you asking that I check your links more than once, or on different days?

Your rudeness and sarcasm are duly noted.  You quoted my link and said there were 2000 "documented lies".  The link very clearly states in the headline of the page, and the URL, I might add, 4,229 false or misleading claims.  That created doubt that you had the correct link.

But enough distractions and distortions.

Here is the issue:

Seriati made the following claim:

Quote
I could have done without the unsubstantiated digs the author threw in on Trump's truthfulness generally.

The actual quote from the author is

Quote
"Donald Trump is known for his verbose dishonesty"

So if I could only find a source that says Trump is known for his dishonesty, I could prove that Seriati is full of BS when he says the digs were unsubstantiated.  Where oh where could I find such a source, one that Seriati would have to accept?


I already find Trump dishonest, he's a braggart that exaggerates. 


So it is evident to any and all readers, that the digs are 100% substantiated.

Awaiting further distractions and distortions.

velcro

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Re: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2018, 09:18:10 PM »
I will take this opportunity to admit my mistake.

There were no further distractions or distortions on this thread. ;D

Of course, there was no admission of vehemently denying the truth, or apologies for rude comments, but I no longer expect that sort of common courtesy.  I am pleased that the truth was established clearly.

I did start a new thread here to address Trump's misleading and false statements.


cherrypoptart

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Re: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2018, 01:17:07 PM »
"Anyone remember the huge uproar when Obama "Lied" about keeping your doctor with the ACA?"

You are correct.

I still to this very day go on about that one.

These Trump lies are piddling compared to that. The stories I see every day on the front page of my internet (yahoo) are just so much trivial drivel, like Melania wearing high heeled shoes while gardening or Trump's son in law getting locked out of an economic meeting and stuck on the street. It's very hard to take what may be real and valid criticisms of Trump seriously with every tiny nit getting constantly. I thought my example of a Trump lie was as good as any and better than most quite honestly. In other words these so called Trump lies are largely inconsequential compared to the whoppers Obama told in his effort to destroy our healthcare system to the next logical step after the predictable and engineered failure that was Obamacare would have to be single payer. As you say, Obama's is still harped on; that's because it was important whereas this piddly diddly stuff is mostly not.

Greg Davidson

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Re: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2018, 11:20:08 PM »
Cherry, please explain the logic why you consider worse lies affecting 20 times more people to be piddling when told by a Republican.

Just focusing on healthcare, Obama's claim about keeping your own doctor was true for ~98% of Americans. Trump claimed that he would provide healthcare for everyone and that there will be no cuts to medicaid. https://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/trump-obamacare-promises-236021

Since having no care is worse than having care provided by a different doctor, and since the hundred million people affected by Trump's lies is a larger number then the ~5 million who had to change doctors, how do you reach your conclusion that the Trump lies are the ones that are piddling?

velcro

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Re: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2018, 09:30:48 AM »
I agree lots of people accuse Trump of insignificant, ambiguous lies, so you don't need to bring up more, thanks.

Let's move to the documented, dangerous, false and misleading statements that Trump has made.  It's on another thread here.

As far as Obama's claim, "If you like your health care plan, you can keep it", taken completely literally, he was in fact wrong.  Not everyone could keep their plan if they liked it.

You couldn't keep your plan if your insurance company went out of business.
You couldn't keep your plan if you changed jobs, were fired, quit, or laid off.
You couldn't keep your plan if your insurance company stopped providing that plan.
You couldn't keep your plan if you stopped paying your premiums.

Did you think that is what Obama was lying about when he said you could keep your plan?  Do you truly, honestly think that he intended people to believe none of these things were permissible if Obamacare passed? 

Here is a reasonable interpretation, for those who are not looking for every opportunity to catch someone in a lie. (What you just finished complaining about)

The law will not require anyone to change plans. If companies or situations change so that the plan changes, the law does not address that, or prevent that.

There is one kernel of truth in the accusation.  Obamacare requires a minimum level of coverage, and a minimum level of premiums that go to patient care.  So if you had a policy that spent 50% of the premiums on administration instead of patient care, and didn't actually cover anything, then no, you would not be able to keep that plan. But you wouldn't really like it, would you?

And best guess is 2-5% of people could not keep their plan. Pretty much all of them got another plan.  Some were more expensive, because they actually covered things.  There are a few anecdotes of people paying more for less, but the plural of anecdote is not data.  And millions of people who did not have insurance before Obamacare have it now.  So overall, a few percent had to change plans (not lose coverage) and many more percent obtained coverage that they did not have before.  Oh, and despite passed legislation to weaken it, and failed attempts to kill it, Obamacare is now favored by 54% of Americans, vs. 42% unfavorable. And maybe Obama's "lie" helped a little to get that done.

If you think that constitutes a lie greater than Trump's statements about North Korea no longer being a nuclear threat, or there being 3 million illegal votes cast in the 2016 election, or that Obama was not born in America, or that the FBI tapped Trump's phones in Trump Tower during the election, or that the tax cut would primarily help the middle class, or that NATO owes us money, then that is your opinion.

Your explanation is that Obama's "lie" was dangerous because it was part of "his effort to destroy our healthcare system to the next logical step after the predictable and engineered failure that was Obamacare would have to be single payer".

I have no response.

cherrypoptart

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Re: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2018, 01:37:32 PM »
Obama's lies are much worse than Trump's, obviously, because Trump is more on my side politically than Obama. Trump is working to make America better whereas Obama was working to tear it apart and Obamacare is a great example of that. I'm not sure if it's worse if it was built to fail on purpose or if it was as terrible as it is and that was the very best that the most brilliant President along with the most caring Congress in history could create. Whenever I see these so called lies of Trump's I can't help but react with, "So what?" Obama's lies about Obamacare were not "so what?" lies. As Biden so elegantly put it, they were a "big you know what deal". Trump is doing the right things and is optimistic about America whereas Obama mostly did the wrong things and felt that America was defective and needed to be substantially changed even if that meant, like a military recruit, it had to be broken down first before it could be remade. In other words, actions matter and even more than that, results matter. Trump is getting good results.

LetterRip

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Re: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2018, 01:42:18 PM »
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There is one kernel of truth in the accusation.  Obamacare requires a minimum level of coverage, and a minimum level of premiums that go to patient care.  So if you had a policy that spent 50% of the premiums on administration instead of patient care, and didn't actually cover anything, then no, you would not be able to keep that plan. But you wouldn't really like it, would you?

I could misremember, but I believe that any plan offered by insurance companies could be kept active by the insurance company, but only if they made no changes at all to the plan.  Any change or new plan would require following the new rules.

cherrypoptart

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Re: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2018, 01:49:26 PM »
You're right that health insurance before Obama was largely a scam run by the insurance companies but letting the insurance companies basically write the law wasn't the answer. The fact is Obamacare was too expensive. I priced it myself and it didn't make financial sense. For a family of four, best case, you're looking at 6k in premiums and then another 6k deductible. If it had been like Obama promised and the price of premiums went down by $2500 a year that would have been great, but it wasn't anything like that. I've also got a nephew having some health issues after a trip to China and we looked into his Obamacare options and they were non-existent. He makes too little to qualify for Obamacare and he doesn't qualify for anything from the great state of Texas either. I told him to remember that if he votes. Obamacare was supposed to help the little guys like him and it did absolutely nothing for him. He only makes about 6k or so a year as what he calls a pro-gamer and gamecaster. If he ever wins a big tournament that could get him hundreds of thousands of dollars but until then it's lean times. If I remember correctly, Pelosi said people like him should be free to follow their dreams, like artists, without having to worry about how to pay for the healthcare they may need. It was all just a pack of lies. And I'm not even convinced the intentions were good either. The Democrats could have passed anything they wanted, and that mess is what they chose. Obamacare didn't do anything for me as a guy in the middle who has to pay for health insurance out of pocket if he wants it and it also didn't do anything for my nephew who is way down on the economic ladder. In short, Obamacare was the Mother of all Lies. The only other one that might be bigger, perhaps the Father of all Lies, was WMDs in Iraq.

velcro

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Re: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2018, 06:15:35 PM »
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Obama's lies are much worse than Trump's, obviously, because Trump is more on my side politically than Obama.

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Trump is working to make America better whereas Obama was working to tear it apart

I won't touch either of these.  They are distractions, because you did not address my points which completely negated your argument about Obama's "lie".  If you would like to address those points, I will respond.

Seriati

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Re: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2018, 09:57:04 PM »
Anyone remember the huge uproar when Obama "Lied" about keeping your doctor with the ACA?  One lie and those on the right felt he should be held accountable.  Funny how the regard for the truth seems to have vanished under Trump.

Well, one lie that anyone with a brain new was a lie, that the media should have found trivially easy to expose if, you know, they were interested in doing their job, that was repeated bunches of time and used to override the actual truth, that there was no way you were keeping your doctor, or that your costs were going down, or that we are all going to have better coverage and for less cost.  One lie that completely overright what 20% of the economy?   One lie that completely swayed a dumb group of voters to support a diminishment of your Constitutional rights as we established a corporatist precedent that the government can make it illegal for you not to but a product you don't want from a private party - sure that won't get abused in the future.

So yes, one knowing lie, the media chose to cover up.  Massive damage.

Versus "5000" lies most of which aren't actually lies?  That the media is choosing to lose credibility over rather than report on honestly?

There's no question he's a braggart that exaggerates and self aggrandizes.  You know, kind of like 'we're going to have the most transparent administration in history' - what a howler that was. 

Seriati

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Re: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2018, 10:26:31 PM »
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I really don't feel the need to go through 2000 "documented" lies, when four of the first 5 are don't qualify.

I assumed that when you say "four of the first 5 are [sic] don't qualify", that the fifth is somehow different from the four that don't qualify as lies, i.e. it is an actual lie.

No, I just started skipping after the first few were BS to see if any were actually lies.  Other than what I specifically laid out, on the debatable ones, I didn't find any that were actual lies.  And I concluded it was a waste of time to keep going through them.

I'm literally of the view that anyone looking at the list objectively would realize that a bunch of them are disagreements.

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Apparently those words mean something else to you, since you now claim that nothing was lies, i.e. five of the first 5 don't qualify.  If that was a typo, just say it and we can move on.

Not a typo, just you making an assumption.

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Are you asking that I check your links more than once, or on different days?

Your rudeness and sarcasm are duly noted.  You quoted my link and said there were 2000 "documented lies".  The link very clearly states in the headline of the page, and the URL, I might add, 4,229 false or misleading claims.  That created doubt that you had the correct link.

Lol, that was a serious question as I think you posted the link more than once, and you haven't actually addressed any of the issues I've raised with it. 

I don't need to go through 500, 2000, or 4229 claims, when the standards demonstrate they are including non-lies willy-nilly.

How about you show a little good faith and make your own argument about some of the "documented" lies.

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But enough distractions and distortions.

I agree.  That's all you do.  If you want to make some specific arguments feel free.

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Here is the issue:

Seriati made the following claim:

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I could have done without the unsubstantiated digs the author threw in on Trump's truthfulness generally.

The actual quote from the author is

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"Donald Trump is known for his verbose dishonesty"

You missed a few more:
"Trump’s administration has undertaken an assault on the truth. "
"That is noxious thinking—and, as little as folks who oppose Trump would like to hear, it’s exactly the kind of aggressive, close-minded speculation that fuels fake news, Trumpian rhetoric, and political divisions."

And this one, though more easily justifiable.
"On first read, it’s easy to discount as yet another fantastical Trump boast. "

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So if I could only find a source that says Trump is known for his dishonesty, I could prove that Seriati is full of BS when he says the digs were unsubstantiated.  Where oh where could I find such a source, one that Seriati would have to accept?

If I get you correctly, you place an overwhelming value on sources, but you don't seem to have any discretion or evaluation of their worthiness.  If they say what you want they are good, if not, they are false.  Even to the point apparently, where your willing to take my word for it (this time without 2 sources you find acceptable).

Lol. 

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I already find Trump dishonest, he's a braggart that exaggerates. 


So it is evident to any and all readers, that the digs are 100% substantiated.

Awaiting further distractions and distortions.

Lol.  You think my opinion is substantiation of the idea that the author didn't need to throw in unsubstantiated claims?  It's certainly my opinion that Trump is a braggart and that like any braggart he exaggerates his own importance in the stories. 

Can you point out where I documented it, or where the author did, or where what I actually said was untrue?  It seems like your complaints about distractions and distortions are just the pot calling the kettle black.

Seriati

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Re: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2018, 10:35:43 PM »
Cherry, please explain the logic why you consider worse lies affecting 20 times more people to be piddling when told by a Republican.

Obama's lie effected everyone with insurance in the United States as well as many without. There aren't 20 times that many people living in the United States.  This is literal nonsense.

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Just focusing on healthcare, Obama's claim about keeping your own doctor was true for ~98% of Americans. Trump claimed that he would provide healthcare for everyone and that there will be no cuts to medicaid. https://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/trump-obamacare-promises-236021

What about Obama's lie on savings?  That was true for 0% of people that pay their own insurance.  Keeping your plan, if you like it?  Given the caveats and that any alteration kicked a plan out of grandfathering (including ones directed by the insurer) that turned out to be close to 0% as well.

I'll also say, flat out, there's no way 98% kept all their doctors.  I've lost 3 doctors myself as they took their practices conceirge to avoid complying.  I'd be shocked if anyone living in a blue state city didn't have at least one doctor that did so.  Not to mention that almost no top doctor in a city takes medicaid patients anymore, or that your "good" insurance under the exchange often costs more and has a higher deductible than what you had before.

Flat out, many many people were harmed by that policy to benefit a few.

Trump's lie?  Pretty much being overconfident that he could get Congress to agree to anything.  With the "resistance" refusing to agree to act in anyone's interest (not even their voters) if it means making a deal with Trump, and his own party split on doing anything at all, it's more the realities prevented it than a lie.  If you want what he promised, write your Democratic Congressmen and tell them to make a deal.

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Since having no care is worse than having care provided by a different doctor, and since the hundred million people affected by Trump's lies is a larger number then the ~5 million who had to change doctors, how do you reach your conclusion that the Trump lies are the ones that are piddling?

Basic math?  Basic logic?

How about the fact that every other politician has LIED FOR YEARs about what they are going to accomplish and you've never cared.  What makes people mad about Trump, is not what he isn't doing, but rather what he is doing.

cherrypoptart

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Re: The truth about the brooch, who was late, who was early and the rest
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2018, 11:44:58 PM »
Seriati

> diminishment of your Constitutional rights as we established a corporatist precedent that the government can make it illegal for you not to but a product you don't want from a private party

I had meant to bring that up because it's so important. Nothing in Trump's sphere of everything he's done or intends to do comes close.