Author Topic: Why can't Republicans denounce the ideology of right-wing terrorists?  (Read 6041 times)

velcro

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Re: Why can't Republicans denounce the ideology of right-wing terrorists?
« Reply #50 on: November 01, 2018, 01:08:25 PM »

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Or to urge crowds to lock up political opponents?

You'll have to refresh me on this one.  Far as I know Trump has never urged a crowd to lock up his political opponents.  Are you deliberately misconstruing a call to apply the law evenly to Clinton and lock her up?  That would be prosecutors, not a crowd, doing so.  Or did I miss a call somewhere to have a crowd grab someone illegally and detain them?

As you know perfectly well, he is not urging the crowd to lock Clinton up.  He is egging on the crowd to encourage him to lock her up, and reveling in it.

You are claiming that locking someone up -not investigate, not have a grand jury, not even arrest and release for bail, but locking them up- is "applying the law evenly"?

Really?  Do you honestly, truly believe that the person responsible for law enforcement in the country, advocating for a private citizen to be locked up without trial, is just fine dandy in a democracy?

Oh, and in the debates, I believe he did flat out threaten to jail her if he won.  Fortunately, he did not keep that promise, but your claim that the chant is innocent is proven false.

I find it absolutely unfathomable that someone of your intelligence honestly interprets reality in this way.

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We have Fox News promoting anti-Semitic conspiracies like George Soros running the State Department (Soros figures like Emmanuel Goldstein in Orwell's 1984, a designated hate figure on the right even though his political contributions are small relative to those of conservatives such as Sheldon Adelson or the Koch Brothers).

It's grossly misleading to call Anti-Soros activism anit-Semitic. 

If you actually studied the history of anti-Semitism, you would not say so.  If you read any of the dozens of experts in the history of anti-Semitism,  you would find that they vehemently disagree with your views.

Sources provided on request, but I am sure you can do your own research.

Fenring

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Re: Why can't Republicans denounce the ideology of right-wing terrorists?
« Reply #51 on: November 01, 2018, 01:14:42 PM »
Really?  Do you honestly, truly believe that the person responsible for law enforcement in the country, advocating for a private citizen to be locked up without trial, is just fine dandy in a democracy?

Source on Trump calling for this?

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It's grossly misleading to call Anti-Soros activism anit-Semitic. 

If you actually studied the history of anti-Semitism, you would not say so.  If you read any of the dozens of experts in the history of anti-Semitism,  you would find that they vehemently disagree with your views.

What in the world does this even mean? If you're going to make such a striking-sounding pronouncement about such a thing, you could at least spell out what your point is.

TheDrake

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Re: Why can't Republicans denounce the ideology of right-wing terrorists?
« Reply #52 on: November 01, 2018, 01:21:37 PM »
There are some people who oppose Soros without being anti-Semitic. There are a significant minority who do so because of his faith or ethnicity. Just like everyone who opposes the Koch brothers isn't doing so because they are old white males, but some are.

rightleft22

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Re: Why can't Republicans denounce the ideology of right-wing terrorists?
« Reply #53 on: November 01, 2018, 01:37:26 PM »
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As for the body slam thing, you need to stop relying on these propaganda outlets to tell you what to think. That was a joke

It was a joke but it wasn't at the congressmen expense. I've seen the clip and there is no way history is going to side with you on that one.

Really? Hillary Clinton just made a joke about how all black people look alike.  You gonna call her a racist?

So I argue that the body slam statement was not a joke and you counter the argument about a Clinton statement

If I say yes Clinton statement was a Joke then Trumps statement can be a joke and your right
If I say no Clinton statement was a not Joke then Trump statement was not a joke

WTF

I am so sick and tired this type of counter argument - its not even a argument
YES we are all hypocrites so we should just let what ever happens happens and shut up. Only those with out sin can throw stones

Clinton isn't in power. I personal think She is stupid and should never have run.  I don't give a crap about what she says or did in the past and anything she says or did in the past does not make what Trump is doing right or wrong.

rightleft22

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Re: Why can't Republicans denounce the ideology of right-wing terrorists?
« Reply #54 on: November 01, 2018, 01:38:46 PM »
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Really?  Do you honestly, truly believe that the person responsible for law enforcement in the country, advocating for a private citizen to be locked up without trial, is just fine dandy in a democracy?

Source on Trump calling for this?

I'm assuming your rejecting the "without trial" part of the statement.

Pete at Home

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Re: Why can't Republicans denounce the ideology of right-wing terrorists?
« Reply #55 on: November 01, 2018, 04:26:44 PM »

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Or to urge crowds to lock up political opponents?

You'll have to refresh me on this one.  Far as I know Trump has never urged a crowd to lock up his political opponents.  Are you deliberately misconstruing a call to apply the law evenly to Clinton and lock her up?  That would be prosecutors, not a crowd, doing so.  Or did I miss a call somewhere to have a crowd grab someone illegally and detain them?

As you know perfectly well, he is not urging the crowd to lock Clinton up.  He is egging on the crowd to encourage him to lock her up, and reveling in it.

You are claiming that locking someone up -not investigate, not have a grand jury, not even arrest and release for bail, but locking them up- is "applying the law evenly"?

Really?  Do you honestly, truly believe that the person responsible for law enforcement in the country, advocating for a private citizen to be locked up without trial, is just fine dandy in a democracy?

Oh, and in the debates, I believe he did flat out threaten to jail her if he won.  Fortunately, he did not keep that promise, but your claim that the chant is innocent is proven false.

I find it absolutely unfathomable that someone of your intelligence honestly interprets reality in this way.

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We have Fox News promoting anti-Semitic conspiracies like George Soros running the State Department (Soros figures like Emmanuel Goldstein in Orwell's 1984, a designated hate figure on the right even though his political contributions are small relative to those of conservatives such as Sheldon Adelson or the Koch Brothers).

It's grossly misleading to call Anti-Soros activism anit-Semitic. 

If you actually studied the history of anti-Semitism, you would not say so.  If you read any of the dozens of experts in the history of anti-Semitism,  you would find that they vehemently disagree with your views.

Sources provided on request, but I am sure you can do your own research.

Regardless of what your sources say, Jewishness should not give a free out of jail card to currency manipulation and other  crimes of the wealthy against the pour. Most people even know that Soros is Jewish. I didn’t know until this discussion.  To attribute any sort of concern about his financial doings with “anti-Semitism quote seems like it cheap thought proof defense trick.

velcro

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Re: Why can't Republicans denounce the ideology of right-wing terrorists?
« Reply #56 on: November 02, 2018, 07:49:01 AM »
First, the issue of locking up Clinton without trial:

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“It’s just awfully good that someone with the temperament of Donald Trump is not in charge of the law in our country,” Mrs. Clinton observed.

“Because,” Mr. Trump replied “you’d be in jail.”

Earlier, Trump had said he would appoint a special prosecutor, but this time, he said she would be in jail. Not on trial, in jail.
(Cue excuses that "what he meant was" something he didn't say.)

From this source:

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June 2, 2016

As Trump was closing in on the GOP nomination, he intensified his attacks on Clinton, who also appeared poised to take the Democratic nomination.

Trump called for Clinton to be jailed during a campaign rally in San Jose, Calif., calling her "guilty as hell."

“Hillary Clinton has to go to jail. She has to go to jail. I said that,” he said.

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Attorney General Jeff Sessions has taken a VERY weak position on Hillary Clinton crimes (where are E-mails & DNC server) & Intel leakers!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) July 25, 2017

[Not a call to jail her, just a statement of guilt without trial]

Again, I am dumbfounded that anyone honestly thinks that "lock her up" is anything but reprehensible when coming from the President.


velcro

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Re: Why can't Republicans denounce the ideology of right-wing terrorists?
« Reply #57 on: November 02, 2018, 08:10:02 AM »
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It's grossly misleading to call Anti-Soros activism anit-Semitic. 

Absolutely true.

Do you know what is even more grossly misleading?

Characterizing false statements about Soros (he controls the State Department, he paid protesters, he is funding the caravan) that closely hew to centuries old anti-Semitic tropes as "anti-Soros activism".  That's like calling burning a cross on someone's lawn "anti-affirmative action activism"

It is kind of like blackface.  If you know anything about the history of racism, you know that blackface was used to diminish and belittle African Americans.

If you know anything about anti-Semitism, then you know the stereotype of the rich Jew, pulling all the strings, trying to control the world.  Anti-Semitic websites are filled with this reference, so when Trump and Fox bring it up, anti-Semites hear the dog whistle and know they have a friend.

Source
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The far right has ecstatically embraced the spectacle of elected political figures such as Trump and Gaetz theorizing about Soros. After Trump’s Soros tweet about Kavanaugh, the neo-Nazi website the Daily Stormer echoed and surpassed Trump’s assertion that anti-Kavanaugh dissent was a nefarious, paid-for plot.

“It is impossible to deny that subversive anti-American Jews were the primary force involved in a sinister plot to destroy Kavanaugh,” Lee Rogers wrote on the site a couple of days later. “These Jews do not represent the interest of America. They represent the interest of their diabolical and evil race first and foremost.”

In response to an Oct. 19 Trump speech in Missoula, Mont., in which Trump again suggested that protesters were paid by “Soros or somebody,” a commenter on anonymous message board 4chan exulted, “TRUMP NAMED THE IMMIGRATION JEW.” (“Naming the Jew” is an anti-Semitic term that refers to pointing out purported nefarious Jewish influence on world events.)

Source
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Matthew Lyons, a researcher and the author of several books on rightwing populism and far-right ideology, said that commonly circulated narratives about George Soros resonate with a long history of antisemitic myths and stereotypes.

“One of the central antisemitic themes for a thousand years, at least, has been the notion that Jews represent this evil, super-powerful group that operates behind the scenes,” Lyons said.

“Often, anti-Jewish conspiracy theories don’t explicitly talk about Jews or ‘the Jews’ as a group. There’s some kind of code word or symbol that’s used in place.”

Encoding Soros as a “globalist” ties in with much older ways of talking about Jews in Europe. “For centuries,” Lyons said, “Jews were characterized in Christian-dominated Europe as a people that didn’t have a country. They were the ‘wandering Jew’. They were seen as visitors or interlopers in other people’s countries and so they were international in that sense.”

Source

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Aryeh Tuchman studies extremism at the Anti-Defamation League, a nonprofit that fights against anti-Semitism and other forms of discrimination. He says there's an important distinction between correctly stating that Soros is an extremely influential progressive donor and claiming without evidence that he sways national events for perverse purposes.

"There is a fringe element of hardcore anti-Semites who have for many years characterized George Soros as the rich Jew who is manipulating world events, controlling the banks, Hollywood, other organizations, potentially even governments around the world for his own nefarious purposes. That is hardcore anti-Semitism," Tuchman said.

Tuchman admits that a person who tweets a Soros conspiracy theory may not mean to promote anti-Semitism. But even then, Tuchman says, these theories could give ammunition to those disseminating the old and dangerous anti-Semitic idea that a group of powerful Jews work behind-the-scenes to manipulate global events.

"Any politician or any public figure who uses anti-Soros conspiracy theories, even if they are not overly anti-Semitic, creates that effect of laying the groundwork for the dissemination of actual anti-Semitism into a population that may not have had a vulnerability to it before," Tuchman said.

He added: "What people need to understand is the history of the anti-Semitic stereotype and the danger that anti-Semitism has posed to Jews, you know, for hundreds of years, and to recognize that disseminating even non-anti-Semitic conspiracy theories about Soros is potentially reinforcing the anti-Semitic ideas about George Soros."

Is everyone who spreads lies about Soros and anti-Semite?  No.  Do they help spread anti-Semitism, willingly or unwillingly?  There is no doubt.

Trump has been told about this fact.  He has not stopped doing it.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 08:13:18 AM by velcro »

TheDeamon

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Re: Why can't Republicans denounce the ideology of right-wing terrorists?
« Reply #58 on: November 02, 2018, 09:22:26 AM »
Whether or not Soros is actively doing anything is rather moot. Soros has had his fingers in helping fund, or other "bootstrap" numerous left-aligned Activist groups over MANY decades. Dating all the way back to Saul Olinsky and Caesar Chavez, IIRC. Not that I'm going to begrudge Chavez, from the interviews I've seen of the (long-since dead) man, I like him, as well as the "Real history" involving him, rather than the caricature both sides have turned him into.... Kinda like MLK being turned into something all indications are he was not.

Yes, it is one thing to level baseless and false accusations without any evidence. (The very embodiment of baseless)

It is another to claim Soros is a man who has a proven track record of having his proverbial "finger in the pie" of a LOT of pies, and the intended purpose of most of those pies isn't particularly upstanding or good from the viewpoint of anyone who respects and values the Constitution of the United States of America and the egalitarian principles it represents.

He may not be calling the shots anymore, but he sure as hell played a very significant role in creating the proverbial battlefield on which the current political realm is fighting on--particularly in the United States.

velcro

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Re: Why can't Republicans denounce the ideology of right-wing terrorists?
« Reply #59 on: November 04, 2018, 12:18:50 PM »
TheDeamon-

Case in point - your post is not anti-Semitic, in my view. (I'd like to see some factual backup for the statement about him being anti-egalitarian, but that is another topic).

As you said, he has a "proven track record". If anyone can find proof of something he controls behind the scenes, or anyone he secretly paid, let me know.

Once you start claiming (Fox) he controls major organizations, or other conspiracy theories about who he is secretly paying (Trump), then you are aligning with the well established anti-Semitic tropes.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Why can't Republicans denounce the ideology of right-wing terrorists?
« Reply #60 on: November 04, 2018, 02:53:52 PM »
Soros has his foundation online with his picture right on the front page.

https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/

One could argue that nobody should be against all of that great stuff they are doing but it seems like it would be much harder to argue that he doesn't have his fingers in a whole bunch of pies.


Pete at Home

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Re: Why can't Republicans denounce the ideology of right-wing terrorists?
« Reply #61 on: November 04, 2018, 04:26:55 PM »
No Velcro. You are the one that introduced the question here of whether Soros’ manipulations were harmful. You can’t presuppose that it’s false in order to show the allegation anti Semitic.

I had no idea Soros was Jewish and have always viewed him like Murdock, a rich foreign immigrant who has used his influence and money to transform America. It’s reasonable and to be expected that anyone wielding power like that will please some parties and displease others.  I am very aware of the history of antisemitism, but to declare that certain otherwise questions are inherently racist and cannot or should not be considered or evaluated— that’s Book burning logic.  You don’t fight antisemitism by burning books in the town square. That’s another historical reference.

Any facile end run around honest discussion, demonizing to avoid examining fact... is a crime against the human mind and a crime against humanity.

1000 years of Christendom’s equivalent of Sharia forced Jews to go into banking, which left them more susceptible to mad accusations of currency manipulation, etc.  but today world banking is no longer associated generally with Jews. So your history lesson is out of date. Soros exists in a different historical context.  Today the biggest voice AGAINST the abuses of international banking is a Jew, Bernie Sanders, not a pack of antisemitism.

velcro

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Re: Why can't Republicans denounce the ideology of right-wing terrorists?
« Reply #62 on: November 04, 2018, 07:43:03 PM »
Pete,

My point is that there are criticisms of Soros that hew very, very closely to extremely well-established anti-Semitic tropes.  Those criticisms are not based on fact, but rather conspiracy theories, so they have no validity in and of themselves.

I can call a Jew a kyke without knowing it is an anti-Semitic term.  Does that make me immune from criticism, because of my ignorance?  What if people told me before what its provenance was, and I chose to ignore them?

You ignore my previous posts that say the same thing.  Criticizing Soros is not anti-Semitic.  Claiming without evidence that Soros is a money hungry, large-nosed person who secretly controls banks, Hollywood, funds anti-American activities and/or parts of the US government (oh, he's Jewish?  I had no idea!) is anti-Semitic.

Soros has his foundation online with his picture right on the front page.

https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/

One could argue that nobody should be against all of that great stuff they are doing but it seems like it would be much harder to argue that he doesn't have his fingers in a whole bunch of pies.



Show me evidence he does "have his fingers in a whole bunch of other pies".  Until then, it is extraordinarily easy to argue that he does not, since all you have is conspiracy theories.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Why can't Republicans denounce the ideology of right-wing terrorists?
« Reply #63 on: November 04, 2018, 09:29:03 PM »
It's right there on that website.

"About George Soros

George Soros launched his philanthropic work in South Africa in 1979. Since then he has given over $32 billion to fund the Open Society Foundations, which work in over 100 countries around the world."

Would you like to know more?

"... He was one of the early prominent voices to criticize the war on drugs as “arguably more harmful than the drug problem itself,” and helped kick-start America’s medical marijuana movement. In the early 2000s, he became a vocal backer of same-sex marriage efforts. Though his causes evolved over time, they continued to hew closely to his ideals of an open society.

His giving has reached beyond his own foundations, supporting independent organizations such as Global Witness, the International Crisis Group, the European Council on Foreign Relations, and the Institute for New Economic Thinking.

Now in his 80s, Soros continues to take an active personal interest in the Open Society Foundations’ work, traveling widely to support their work and advocating for positive policy changes with world leaders both publicly and privately."

-----------------------------------------------------

Hardly a conspiracy theory when they brag about it.

Just looking into one thing about the European Council on Foreign Relations and apparently they are supportive of BDS against Israel so you could be anti-Soros because you support Israel and for that you get accused of being anti-Semitic. Fascinating.

Pete at Home

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Re: Why can't Republicans denounce the ideology of right-wing terrorists?
« Reply #64 on: November 05, 2018, 12:59:30 AM »
Pete,

My point is that there are criticisms of Soros that hew very, very closely to extremely well-established anti-Semitic tropes.  Those criticisms are not based on fact, but rather conspiracy theories, so they have no validity in and of themselves.

I appreciate your clarification.  I think you're wrong though because where the criticisms of Soros turn into full blown unfounded conspiracy theories, they depart from the anti-semitic model to resemble something more like the James-Bond-Blofeld/Spectre model.  Which while ludicrous, is not inherently antisemitic.  Blofeld is an obvious Jewish name and fits your dude in the shadows charicature, but you don't usually think "Jew" when you see the dude's hand stroking that long white-haired cat,

See The Guardian, https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/jul/06/the-george-soros-philosophy-and-its-fatal-flaw

While a few of Soros' projects annoy me, he actually AFAIK deserves credit for helping to bring down the Iron Curtain.

velcro

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Re: Why can't Republicans denounce the ideology of right-wing terrorists?
« Reply #65 on: November 05, 2018, 12:54:13 PM »
Blofeld is an obvious Jewish name

Actually, it is not.  It is Polish, which often overlaps.

And the fictional Blofeld is definitively not Jewish.

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Ian Fleming includes information about Blofeld's background in his novel Thunderball. According to the novel, Blofeld was born on 28 May 1908 (which is also Fleming's birthday) in Gdingen, Imperial Germany (now Gdynia, Poland); his father Ernst George Blofeld was Polish, and his mother Maria Stavro Michelopoulos was Greek, hence the well-known Greek name Stavro.[2] After World War I, Blofeld became a Polish national. As a young man, he was well-versed in the social science disciplines, but also in the natural science and technology disciplines. He first graduated from the University of Warsaw with a degree in Political History and Economics, and then from the Warsaw University of Technology with a degree in Engineering and Radionics. He was then hired by the Polish Ministry of Posts and Telegraphs and appointed to a sensitive communication position, which he used for buying and selling stocks at the Warsaw Stock Exchange.[3]

Foreseeing World War II, Blofeld made copies of top-secret wires and sold them for cash to Nazi Germany. Before the German invasion of Poland in 1939, he destroyed all records of his existence, then moved first to Sweden, then to Turkey, where he worked for Turkish Radio and began to set up his own private intelligence organisation. During the war, he sold information to both sides. After the defeat of Erwin Rommel, he decided to back the Allied war effort, and was awarded numerous medals by the Allied powers after the war's end. Blofeld then moved temporarily to South America before founding SPECTRE.

A real Blofeld says
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The assumption that Blofeld is of German origin is one aspect of this tale I find irritating. Blofeld as a name is as English as tea and china, and the literal translation is “blue field”, a reference to the meadows where blue-flowering flax flourished. The Norfolk village of Blofield (its name now updated), is in the Domesday Book, and my family have been law‑abiding gentleman farmers in the county, at Hoveton, near Wroxham, since the 1680s.

velcro

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Re: Why can't Republicans denounce the ideology of right-wing terrorists?
« Reply #66 on: November 05, 2018, 12:58:37 PM »
Soros has his foundation online with his picture right on the front page.

https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/

One could argue that nobody should be against all of that great stuff they are doing but it seems like it would be much harder to argue that he doesn't have his fingers in a whole bunch of pies.

Cherrypoptart has listed "all of that great stuff" that is on the website.  But "a whole bunch of other pies" clearly means things he is involved in that are not on the website.

Cherrypoptart has not listed any of the other pies, just the pies in plain view.

So, at the risk of repeating myself, it is easy to argue there are no "other pies", besides the ones in plain view, because nobody has shown any, outside of vague conspiracy theories about owning the State Department and paying protesters, etc.

velcro

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Re: Why can't Republicans denounce the ideology of right-wing terrorists?
« Reply #67 on: November 05, 2018, 09:08:10 PM »
where the criticisms of Soros turn into full blown unfounded conspiracy theories, they depart from the anti-semitic model to resemble something more like the James-Bond-Blofeld/Spectre model.  Which while ludicrous, is not inherently antisemitic.

Actually, quite the opposite.

Have you heard of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?  It is the archetypical anti-Semitic conspiracy theory, first published in Russia in 1903, distributed by Henry Ford, taught by German school teachers in 1933, and still advocated by some groups today.

From Wikipedia:
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The Protocols purports to document the minutes of a late-19th-century meeting attended by world Jewish leaders, the "Elders of Zion", who are conspiring to take over the world. The forgery places in the mouths of the Jewish leaders a variety of plans, most of which derive from older antisemitic canards. For example, the Protocols includes plans to subvert the morals of the non-Jewish world, plans for Jewish bankers to control the world's economies, plans for Jewish control of the press, and – ultimately – plans for the destruction of civilization.

So the crazy conspiracy theories about Soros fit quite well.  And take a look at Trump's last campaign ad.
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Philanthropist investor George Soros, Federal Reserve head Janet Yellen and Goldman Sachs CEO Lloyd Blankfein, all of whom are Jewish, appear onscreen as Trump inveighs against “levers of power in Washington” and “global special interests” — both considered anti-Semitic dog-whistles.

Again, criticizing Soros, or Yellen or Blankfein is not anti-Semitic.  Spreading conspiracy theories that are historically anti-Semitic and aimed at Jews at best provides aid and comfort to anti-Semites.  And in the case of Donald Trump, he cannot claim ignorance.

velcro

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Re: Why can't Republicans denounce the ideology of right-wing terrorists?
« Reply #68 on: November 05, 2018, 09:12:09 PM »
Starting a thread about Soros.

And Blofeld is more likely English than Polish, but I found no evidence that it is Jewish.

Pete at Home

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Re: Why can't Republicans denounce the ideology of right-wing terrorists?
« Reply #69 on: November 06, 2018, 02:33:39 AM »
where the criticisms of Soros turn into full blown unfounded conspiracy theories, they depart from the anti-semitic model to resemble something more like the James-Bond-Blofeld/Spectre model.  Which while ludicrous, is not inherently antisemitic.

Actually, quite the opposite.

Have you heard of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?  It is the archetypical anti-Semitic conspiracy theory, first published in Russia in 1903, distributed by Henry Ford, taught by German school teachers in 1933, and still advocated by some groups today.

Velcro, I have a master's degree in Rhetoric and Technical communications, and I did my thesis on political discourse (Hazlitt's Spirit of the Age). So obviously as someone to whom "never again" means "never again to anybody," I've read Protocols, seen Triumph of Will, read Will Shirer's rise and fall, visited Auschevitz and Birkenau frequently when my family lived in Poland.  Every time we went from Warsaw to Malbork castle or to Gdansk (formerly Danzig), I stopped and spent half a day at Auschevitz and Birkenau, reading the journals on display and speaking to locals who were children when the camps were active.  spent probably a solid 60,000 hours pondering the question of how the holocaust happened and how we can stop it from ever happening again to anyone.  My grandfather spent a good half of my mom's toddlerhood hanging out in one of Hitler's little camps after he was captured at the Battle of the Bulge.  And while I regretfully cannot find a single drop of Jewish blood in my genealogy, my ex wife had a Jewish grandparent so my own children would have gone to the camps had I lived in Nazi germany.  I also have a severely disabled son who the Nazis would have been put to death even before Kristalnacht.

I don't say this to get anyone to "respect my authoritee" (I'm more of a frack authority kind of guy if you haven't noticed.)  I do hope to convince you that I'm a gentile who has checked his privilege in this sensitive matter, that I approach this matter with particular humility and hunger for answers.

(((If we can get through this discussion without anyone becoming uncivil, then I'd love to debate Henry Ford I with you.  I regard him as a great man who was brainwashed by historical forces beyond his control) but nevertheless ended up doing far more good than harm in the world.)))

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The Protocols purports to document the minutes of a late-19th-century meeting attended by world Jewish leaders, the "Elders of Zion", who are conspiring to take over the world. The forgery places in the mouths of the Jewish leaders a variety of plans, most of which derive from older antisemitic canards. For example, the Protocols includes plans to subvert the morals of the non-Jewish world, plans for Jewish bankers to control the world's economies, plans for Jewish control of the press, and – ultimately – plans for the destruction of civilization.

So the crazy conspiracy theories about Soros fit quite well.

1. The "crazy conspiracy theories" really don't fit Soros near enough as they fit Blofeld.  As you cited:

Quote
Foreseeing World War II, Blofeld made copies of top-secret wires and sold them for cash to Nazi Germany. Before the German invasion of Poland in 1939, he destroyed all records of his existence, then moved first to Sweden, then to Turkey, where he worked for Turkish Radio and began to set up his own private intelligence organisation. During the war, he sold information to both sides. After the defeat of Erwin Rommel, he decided to back the Allied war effort, and was awarded numerous medals by the Allied powers after the war's end. Blofeld then moved temporarily to South America before founding SPECTRE.

2. I regard John Birch literature as softcore antisemitism partially derivative from Protocols, and I only mention them in this paragraph because they evolved *after* the watershed Nuremberg trials.  [It's only at Nuremberg that (IMC&HO) continuing belief in Protocols became a "crazy conspiracy theory."] Bircher Protocol Revisionism narrows the focus to a handful of Jewish bankers who the birchers accuse of working with both sides. 

3. If Fleming didn't base Blofeld on Bircher revisionist screeds (which are not inherently or overtly antisemitic and can only be shown so in their rhetorical and historical context) then I submit that Fleming may have come across an earlier similar piece of revisionism in his postwar intelligence work or via his US intelligence contacts. (Fleming personally trained a shocking number of men and women who later became the CIA's first generation and John F Kennedy actually used the Bully Pulpit to promote Fleming work in a manner without precedent except for President Wilson's promotion of some white supremacist cinematic piece of crap).

4. I put "crazy conspiracy theories" in disagreement quotes because Protocols isn't "crazy" but an appallingly well-constructed blood libel.  The Tsar's intelligence services used espionage and state of the art sophistry to make Russia inhospitable to Jews.  They accomplished their objective.  Just as "Triumph of Will" represented a triumph of modern cinematic art as well as documenting a collapse of human will against Nazi brainwashing.  (look at the tears in the eye of the worker who speaks in the beginning of Hitler restoring the "dignity" of the german worker).

5. I don't say anything here to defend the Nazis or to praise antisemites but rather to know our enemy like Ender knew the buggers.  If we take "never again" seriously we need to stop throwing around the word Nazi like it's some dumb thing we made up in our nightmares, and recognize how so many intelligent and decent people like Ford were deceived.  And words like "hate" does not sum it up; if anything they dumb things down.

6. I used numbers on these points to help myself cover my arguments while reducing my word count.  Should I have taken them out before posting?  Do they come off as hostile or overly pedantic? Thank you and feedback welcome.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 02:44:16 AM by Pete at Home »

velcro

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Re: Why can't Republicans denounce the ideology of right-wing terrorists?
« Reply #70 on: November 06, 2018, 12:36:13 PM »
Pete,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. No hostility or pedantry inferred. But I am curious, are you familiar with the meaning of triple parentheses?

I pointed out that the Protocols talks about world domination.  So world domination is an anti-Semitic trope.  I don't think you can deny that.

So "full blown unfounded conspiracy theories" of Soros controlling the State Department etc. do in fact hew closely to anti-Semitic tropes.  I don't see how that conclusion does not follow directly from the premises.

The theories also are Blofeldian, but that is a tangent you brought up, which does not affect my conclusion.

Fenring

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Re: Why can't Republicans denounce the ideology of right-wing terrorists?
« Reply #71 on: November 06, 2018, 01:00:17 PM »
I pointed out that the Protocols talks about world domination.  So world domination is an anti-Semitic trope.  I don't think you can deny that.

You are making this logical connection unironically?

Quote
So "full blown unfounded conspiracy theories" of Soros controlling the State Department etc. do in fact hew closely to anti-Semitic tropes.  I don't see how that conclusion does not follow directly from the premises.

 ::)


velcro

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Re: Why can't Republicans denounce the ideology of right-wing terrorists?
« Reply #72 on: November 06, 2018, 10:06:00 PM »
I pointed out that the Protocols talks about world domination.  So world domination is an anti-Semitic trope.  I don't think you can deny that.

You are making this logical connection unironically?

I'm not sure what part of that is not clear.

The Protocols are the boilerplate for much, if not most of anti-Semitism.  It alleges plans for world domination by Jews.  Do you deny that when you say a Jew, or a group of Jews, wants to dominate the world, it is following that model?

If I make fun of a very blonde woman by saying she is stupid, without any real evidence, I think it is fair to say that I am hewing closely to anti-blonde tropes, knowingly or not.  If you never heard that trope before, you would be doubtful.  But if you knew about the thousands of dumb blonde jokes, it would make perfect sense.

Fenring

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Re: Why can't Republicans denounce the ideology of right-wing terrorists?
« Reply #73 on: November 06, 2018, 10:54:10 PM »
I'm not sure what part of that is not clear.

The Protocols are the boilerplate for much, if not most of anti-Semitism.  It alleges plans for world domination by Jews.  Do you deny that when you say a Jew, or a group of Jews, wants to dominate the world, it is following that model?

That wasn't the argument you presented before; what you said before sounded like it was saying:

a) World domination is a Protocols trope
b) Therefore invoking a theme of world domination invokes the anti-Semitic trope.

That in itself is a ridiculous argument. Its current form seems to be that if you accuse a Jew of world domination *then* it invokes the anti-Semitic trope. That's not as ridiculous, but still runs afoul of plain common sense, which says that if a person born to Jewish parents actually is suing for world domination, it cannot be relevant to Jewish people as a whole to accuse that one person of it. Now you might be on to something if you suppose that anti-Semites actually do make this slippery slope and accuse all Jews for that which a few might do; then again that slippery slope seems to run in all directions, where "conservatives" are blamed for what the Westboro Baptist Church does and "liberals" are blamed for what Antifa does. So in that respect you'd be saying something correct but redundant.

But the "he's a Jew so you can't accuse him of seeking world domination" trope is tired. No, being a Jew (or anything else) isn't a deflector shield from being accused of things. To whatever extent some people may be actually fixated in the Jews, I agree that it's good to be on the lookout for this kind of mindset, but hate comes in all flavors.

velcro

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Re: Why can't Republicans denounce the ideology of right-wing terrorists?
« Reply #74 on: November 07, 2018, 12:48:30 PM »

 if you accuse a Jew of world domination *then* it invokes the anti-Semitic trope. That's not as ridiculous, but still runs afoul of plain common sense, which says that if a person born to Jewish parents actually is suing for world domination, it cannot be relevant to Jewish people as a whole to accuse that one person of it....

But the "he's a Jew so you can't accuse him of seeking world domination" trope is tired.

You almost have it.

If you accuse a Jew, without any basis whatsoever, of attempting world domination, then it invokes an anti-Semitic trope.

You are missing the bolded section. (I may have deemphasized this in the several iterations and dissections of my original statement, but from the beginning I was assuming the accusations were conspiracy theories without any basis)

If you accuse a blonde of being a stupid bimbo, and she is, you are ok.  But if you have no evidence, you are playing into stereotypes.

If you accuse (person of race X, color Y, creed Z etc.) of being (bigoted stereotype for that group) and they actually have that behavior, you are ok.
But if your accusation is just a conspiracy theory, then you are most definitely reinforcing that stereotype, or anti-X trope, or racism.

Maybe you don't think you are.  Maybe you are not aware of the stereotypes.  But the people who are already sold on the stereotypes see you repeat them, without any basis whatsoever, and their beliefs are reinforced.

And as a side note, the tropes are about Jews as a people, not just one or two.  They pick out one or two as examples to prove the rule.

Fenring

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Re: Why can't Republicans denounce the ideology of right-wing terrorists?
« Reply #75 on: November 07, 2018, 12:53:56 PM »
Maybe you don't think you are.  Maybe you are not aware of the stereotypes.  But the people who are already sold on the stereotypes see you repeat them, without any basis whatsoever, and their beliefs are reinforced.

If we're going to use the Ornery definition of "without any basis whatsoever" then pretty much any claim can fall under this category. Good luck getting people to agree on what claims do or don't have reasonable basis. And I don't fancy the type of argument that goes in the form of "Since *I* cannot see any clear basis for your accusation I'm going to assert that *you* are employing a hateful trope." That still doesn't follow, man.

Best case is you see repeated data points of someone 'happening' to malign people all of a similar race/group (or all significantly not part of a specific race/group) and then you can build a case that there's reason to believe this person is an "...ist."