Author Topic: The Shampeachement Follies  (Read 16234 times)

Seriati

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Re: The Shampeachement Follies
« Reply #600 on: February 18, 2020, 02:43:36 PM »
Barr said expressly that it didn't influence the decision, which means regardless of word not an interference.  Now the media blowing it out of proportion?  That certainly is interfering in his ability to do his job, and that can be tracked back to Trump's tweet (even if the coverage is solely an act of politics).

DonaldD

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Re: The Shampeachement Follies
« Reply #601 on: February 18, 2020, 04:12:26 PM »
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... and much of the deep state Bureaucrats
Boogaboogabooga

Seriati

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Re: The Shampeachement Follies
« Reply #602 on: February 18, 2020, 04:18:26 PM »
So then you'd be cool if we replaced the entire federal work force with new workers that support Republicans 95% of the time?

TheDrake

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Re: The Shampeachement Follies
« Reply #603 on: February 18, 2020, 04:20:46 PM »
The deep staters you're talking about had no problem serving in the Bush administration and in some cases going back to Reagan. They support plenty of republicans, just not lunatics that attack them on a daily basis.

Seriati

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Re: The Shampeachement Follies
« Reply #604 on: February 18, 2020, 04:31:14 PM »
Lol,  if you ignore turn over in the federal work force, that Obama was a master at embedding political appointees into career positions, and that dems have been pursuing a regulatory control strategy for decades, you could almost have a point.  But you don't, cause it's just a fact that the Bureaucracy is Dem controlled and has been ignoring their actual duties to pursue resistance at every turn (much like how they were out of control under Obama in the same Dem favoring direction) to the point of actually using multiple government agencies to attack political opponents.

Even still, in the past what they could do was far more limited, because there wasn't he same level of communications tech to make coordination not only possible, but trivially easy. 

It's just stunning, you are concerned about Trump's non-existent abuse of power, and totally ignore the rampant abuse of power by bureaucrats.

Crunch

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Re: The Shampeachement Follies
« Reply #605 on: February 18, 2020, 04:36:04 PM »
Quote
... and much of the deep state Bureaucrats
Boogaboogabooga

Deep

DonaldD

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Re: The Shampeachement Follies
« Reply #606 on: February 18, 2020, 05:08:56 PM »
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it's just a fact that the Bureaucracy is Dem controlled and has been ignoring their actual duties to pursue resistance at every turn
The confirmation bias is strong in this one... (and very consistent)

Seriati

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Re: The Shampeachement Follies
« Reply #607 on: February 18, 2020, 05:16:55 PM »
Lol, so do you have any evidence at all that the federal bureaucrats evenly support Republicans?  Or that they've not leaked and resisted Trump to a far far greater degree than Obama (who they actually facilitated)?

Or is just the pot calling the kettle black with your assertion of confirmation bias?

Honestly, I used to think people argued in good faith, but I'm doubting it more an more everyday.

TheDrake

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Re: The Shampeachement Follies
« Reply #608 on: February 18, 2020, 06:09:42 PM »
Are they leaking more? Yes. But you're assuming it is a partisan motivation rather than wanting to reveal something they truly believe is wrong.

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Two examples include the leaking of transcripts of Trump's phone calls with foreign leaders to the Washington Post, and the disclosures about irregularities in the way the White House processed senior presidential adviser Jared Kushner's security clearance to NBC News.

Those are two big examples. But did they get leaked because Trump is a psycho blowhard that insults foreign leaders, or because they just don't like him? I doubt anything Obama did was wild enough for someone to blow the whistle. Now you might hope that they would instead raise the issues internally. But given Trump's tendency to crush anyone who dares question him? Can you take it to Congress? We see how well that worked out.

I highly doubt that Obama overruled a clearance judgement, and he certainly didn't do it for one of his in-laws. I'd like to think that if he did, that would have been leaked as well. I'd like to think that someone would expose a call that he made where he was petty and unreasonable and undiplomatic. I can't prove it, maybe Obama did these things all the time and the deep state was just fine with it.

TheDeamon

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Re: The Shampeachement Follies
« Reply #609 on: February 18, 2020, 07:15:55 PM »
Well Barr felt it was interfering, making his job harder, and last time I checked he's not part of the evil left.

I don't think that word means what you think it means in the context it was given.

Trump's tweets and other comments cause massive optics problems which greatly interfere in several departments ability to effectively conduct their roles and duties. Not necessarily because of what Trump did, but from how others respond to what he said.

TheDeamon

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Re: The Shampeachement Follies
« Reply #610 on: February 18, 2020, 07:36:38 PM »
Hmmm... Federal Judges Association joins "leftwing media", as do more than 2000 former DOJ officials and federal prosecutors.  The "leftwing media" is certainly becoming quite a big tent.

I could see this two cut two different ways, but think calls for resignation are premature. Without even touching those two directions it could cut, I'm dubious about the 2,000 signatures claim. A lot of those petitions, once they start drilling into the names, tend to end up including completely invalid names, or even "signatures" that the name belongs disavows having ever signed.

Option 1) The DoJ was politicized and "weaponized" under Obama, and a number of those "bipartisan signatures" refuse to belive that to be true, and are operating on the presumption that it absolutely did not happen, which leaves only Barr being "Trump's lap dog." But if you go with the DoJ having been weaponized under Obama, then what may seem to be Barr "doing Trump's bidding" is in fact him trying to clean up DoJ instead. Throw in Never Trump Replublicans, and Democrats(given the heavy pro-Democrat skew for many Government Agencies) in general, and seeing something get 2,000 signatures to support embarrassing Trump is downright trivial to achieve given the size of it's of living former employee pool, never mind the people currently working there.

Option 2) Barr is in fact doing Trump's bidding. I've covered this previously elsewhere, I don't think Barr is serving as AG this time for the purpose of ladder climbing. He's not there because he needs the paycheck. He's there because he feels there is a job that needs to be done, and based on his past record, he's acting based on personal principles(which he had been well regarded for in the past--by both parties) rather than based on what Trump wants. (While Trump's "wants" may align with where some of Barr's principles lead, that isn't to be confused with Barr changing positions to suit Trump's whims)

I'm awaiting his testimony before Congress in the coming month to explain what was going on. I've previously said that the optics on this whole affair are bad and presents a good case for Congress to investigate and exercise their power of oversight. But jumping straight to demanding a resignation before he has a chance to present his case is very highly premature.

The other thing happening in the background is that a number of other investigations regarding DoJ Activiies in 2016 are still ongoing, and Barr is privy to that information, and most of the latest events involving Trump associates also revolves those same 2016 investigations. It is entirely reasonable to believe that finds from those investigations, rather than Trump's hot air, are what is guiding Barr's decisions.

TheDeamon

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Re: The Shampeachement Follies
« Reply #611 on: February 18, 2020, 07:37:59 PM »
Are they leaking more? Yes. But you're assuming it is a partisan motivation rather than wanting to reveal something they truly believe is wrong.

Recursion is a very real thing, and this statement has it going on in spades.

A Partisan is going to be more inclined towards being either alarmed or conclude something to "be wrong" if the activity they're witnessing directly contradicts their partisan beliefs, harms their partisan cause, or benefits their partisan rival. Exculpatory factors do not matter to a partisan.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 07:43:49 PM by TheDeamon »

DonaldD

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Re: The Shampeachement Follies
« Reply #612 on: February 18, 2020, 09:30:55 PM »
Or Option 3) The DoJ was politicized and "weaponized" under Bush, and yet even those Republican operatives have found Barr's actions to be beyond the pale.

I love how everything comes down to being unproven and unprovable conspiracy theories designed to hurt Trump, whose every decision, action and associate (even the convicted felons) are unimpeachable according to his accolytes.

DonaldD

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Re: The Shampeachement Follies
« Reply #613 on: February 19, 2020, 05:13:45 PM »
Trump alleged to have attempted to bribe Assange to clear Russia of Wikileaks involvement in 2016 election

It's still early days, but Assange's barrister made the claim in front of a judge in Westminster Magistrates' Court, so he must be fairly confident in his ability to support the claim.

Fenring

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Re: The Shampeachement Follies
« Reply #614 on: February 19, 2020, 06:04:46 PM »
Trump alleged to have attempted to bribe Assange to clear Russia of Wikileaks involvement in 2016 election

It's still early days, but Assange's barrister made the claim in front of a judge in Westminster Magistrates' Court, so he must be fairly confident in his ability to support the claim.

I have heard about this, but it should also be noted that the news is editorializing the headline. For instance some sources are reporting that Trump was bribing Assange to "lie" about the fact that it was Ukraine, and not Russia, involved in 2016 interference. This implies that Trump is corrupt and is trying to coerce people possibly on pain of death to serve his evil agenda. But what I have heard is that in fact Assange really does believe this and has been saying it all along, which would mean that Trump will give him a pardon in exchange for making the same message he's been saying in context of Trump being correct about 2016. In this second scenario it makes Trump look merciful in a sense, that by looking past what another admin would see as treasonous actions the truth can come out instead.

Do you see how a partisan slant can make Trump's offer to him appear alternatively nefarious or beneficient?

DonaldD

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Re: The Shampeachement Follies
« Reply #615 on: February 19, 2020, 07:05:29 PM »
It's an interesting theory, but strangely, Trump is not defending the alleged action as being righteous - he is denying having taken that action as if somehow he believes it to be a bad thing...
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"The President barely knows Dana Rohrabacher other than he's an ex-congressman. He's never spoken to him on this subject or almost any subject.
"It is is a complete fabrication and a total lie."
Of course, Trump has previously praised Rohrabacher, an outspoken fan of Putin's, as being a "great congressman"... but that Trump lies with even the slightest of provocation is hardly a surprise to anybody anymore.

TheDrake

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Re: The Shampeachement Follies
« Reply #616 on: February 19, 2020, 07:37:41 PM »
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Do you see how a partisan slant can make Trump's offer to him appear alternatively nefarious or beneficient?

If he's been saying it all along, then he wouldn't have to be asked to say it. If he's never previously said it publicly, then at the very least you once again have a terrible optics problem with the suggestion of quid pro quo.

None of this is terribly new news, although it may have a little more weight.

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Giuliani said he believed Assange may be able to "show who invented [the] false story that [Trump] colluded with Russians."

Giuliani, a former U.S. attorney and New York City mayor, said he was "not sure yet" if Assange helping exonerate Trump would lighten his possible criminal penalties.

That one isn't liberal media spin, it came out of the Washington Examiner.

Given the amount of times that Trump gnashed his teeth over how many people were giving false testimony in order to get plea bargains, I'm not sure why he would trust this. Oh, right, it would help him.

Crunch

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Re: The Shampeachement Follies
« Reply #617 on: February 19, 2020, 07:43:21 PM »
It's an interesting theory, but strangely, Trump is not defending the alleged action as being righteous - he is denying having taken that action as if somehow he believes it to be a bad thing...
Quote
"The President barely knows Dana Rohrabacher other than he's an ex-congressman. He's never spoken to him on this subject or almost any subject.
"It is is a complete fabrication and a total lie."
Of course, Trump has previously praised Rohrabacher, an outspoken fan of Putin's, as being a "great congressman"... but that Trump lies with even the slightest of provocation is hardly a surprise to anybody anymore.


Given the pace and breadth of media lies, this is an incredibly ironic thing to say. But it is a great story ... and they tell it so well. Run Forest Run.

wmLambert

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Re: The Shampeachement Follies
« Reply #618 on: February 19, 2020, 07:51:26 PM »
Well Barr felt it was interfering, making his job harder, and last time I checked he's not part of the evil left.

With all things Trumpian, we must be patient and see how the machinations evolve. A professor who teaches the Philosophy of Persuasion (like my Professor at Michigan, James V. McConnell) could spend a whole term studying the ins and outs of Trump's Bully Pulpit. He's mentioned it before, but the media seems to have missed it. He saw how Bush 43 honored the office of the President, and tried to model himself after Reagan - rather than his own father. George W. Bush noted that Reagan ignored the media, and let history exonerate his actions. He was wrong. Reagan was a great communicator and didn't just ignore the media - he went around it, never letting a pejorative be sustained without addressing it. Bush 43 never addressed his attackers, he foolishly believed the media would do it for him, and history would make things right.

Trump knows the media will never give him a fair shake, so does like Reagan did, and goes round them. His use of social platforms dominates the news when he wants to do so. The media believes the public has a short attention span, and if they ignore correcting their own embarrassments, they won't be judged for their perfidy. What he hasn't done is smash the rule of law. What he does is challenge his attackers in ways they find hard to ignore. Decorum is no longer a principle that will muzzle him, like former Presidents were.

At the current moment, after his own exoneration, he used his Executive powers to pardon or commute unfair sentences and, makes the media address the Swamp, once again.

DonaldD

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Re: The Shampeachement Follies
« Reply #619 on: February 19, 2020, 09:04:19 PM »
Are you suggesting Trump had not previously heaped praise on Rohrabacher, Crunch?

Crunch

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Re: The Shampeachement Follies
« Reply #620 on: February 20, 2020, 07:32:37 AM »
I'm suggesting that constantly whining about what you call “lies” while also constantly championing organizations that have demonstrably and consistently lied to us is ironic. I don’t think you (and quite a few others) have a good grasp on what’s true anymore, just what’s ideologically correct and talking points - almost exclusively driven by orange man bad mythology.

DonaldD

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Re: The Shampeachement Follies
« Reply #621 on: February 20, 2020, 10:03:52 AM »
Crunch, you are the only poster so focused on orange man syndrome - to the point of seeing everything you read being processed through that filter.  Also, why focus on the throw-away "lies" observation, while ignoring the substance of the posts?

By the way, what is this organization that you feel is being "championed" here?  Twitter?  BBC? The Westminster Magistrates' Court?

Seriati

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Re: The Shampeachement Follies
« Reply #622 on: February 20, 2020, 10:12:06 AM »
Lol, DonaldD, yes the Republican President praised a Republican member of the House running in a close election.  In other news, Senators often refer to each other as honorable and leaders of both parties say nice things about party members to the press.

But this "story" is funny, and way late.  It was already reported in 2017.  See for example https://www.wsj.com/articles/gop-congressman-sought-trump-deal-on-wikileaks-russia-1505509918.   Where its clear that Rohrabacher was the one that came up with the "deal" and was pitching it to the White House (not the other way around).  As to what he was asking for?

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The possible “deal”—a term used by Mr. Rohrabacher during the Wednesday phone call—would involve a pardon of Mr. Assange or “something like that,” Mr. Rohrabacher said. In exchange, Mr. Assange would probably present a computer drive or other data-storage device that Mr. Rohrabacher said would exonerate Russia in the long-running controversy about who was the source of hacked and stolen material aimed at embarrassing the Democratic Party during the 2016 election.

“He would get nothing, obviously, if what he gave us was not proof,” Mr. Rohrabacher said.

So pretty literally, he was asking for proof not lies.  The report was on a leak of a call where Rohrabacher was talking with Kelly (not Trump), and ended up getting referred to the CIA.

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“I would be happy to go with somebody you trust whether it is somebody at the FBI; somebody on your staff,” Mr. Rohrabacher said. The California congressman said he would be pleased to talk to CIA Director Mike Pompeo, but that the agency “has its limitations” and wanted “to cover their butt by having gone along with this big lie.”

All this back in September 2017.  Not seeing how its suddenly breaking news two and a half years later.

TheDeamon

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Re: The Shampeachement Follies
« Reply #623 on: February 20, 2020, 02:56:26 PM »
With the short attention span press and short memories as well, it's hardly shocking that they'd start dredging up forgotten stories from years past in an effort to try to smear in the present, as so (comparatively) few people are going to remember the proper context for what was going on.