Author Topic: Yemen  (Read 1279 times)

DJQuag

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Yemen
« on: April 11, 2019, 11:22:19 AM »
I feel I brought up some substantial issues the other night about Yemen.

We can blame Obama for starting it, and Trump for continuing it. It feels fun for the whole family.

I could be mistaken but I've had a glance through. Doesn't look like anyone is discussing it.

Lotta kids dying every day from starvation through a blockade that is enforced/enabled by US/Western support. Why aren't we protesting against this?

DJQuag

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2019, 11:31:33 AM »
https://youtu.be/xwg24AI2G7Y

Saudis are systemically starving an entire population to death.

They did 9/11, but I guess we're cool to be their huckleberries in a war crime?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 11:35:11 AM by DJQuag »

TheDrake

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2019, 11:51:49 AM »
US Congress passed a resolution ending US involvement. Trump has yet to act, but he has threatened to veto it.

D.W.

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2019, 12:42:50 PM »
Our relationship with SA always strikes me as a business decision and a military one.  I cannot think of a single person, of any political leaning I've spoken with who likes our is in favor of our support for SA. 

At BEST, they will grudgingly concede we "need" them.  That opinion, in my experience is rare.  Most are disgusted we support them or partner with them or sell anything to them at all. 

I expect to most, this is something our government does.  Not something America supports.  They compartmentalize it as, "nothing we can do about it" and go on with their day.

If you put on a national election ballot an item for, "immediately beginning the process of shutting down any bases, ending strategic partnership and banning the sale of any military hardware or training programs with SA", it would receive overwhelming support.  90% or more.  10% is my guess of international-affairs / military wonks who could weigh the merits of ending this partnership and come down in favor of maintaining it.

NobleHunter

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2019, 12:49:21 PM »
If severing ties with SA was perceived to be a Democratic idea, the vote would swing much closer to 50/50. As a GOP idea, there'd be a similar surge in support but I don't think it'd be as extreme. But I may be too optimistic about the principles of the majority of DNC supporters.

D.W.

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2019, 01:01:14 PM »
I think having Trump in office affords us the best chance to sever ties with them.  Something I think we should do. 

He's the type willing, if not inclined by nature of his personality, to reject military advice.  The flip side is someone could convinced him that decision was going to be too costly to the economy and he'd look bad.

Fenring

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2019, 01:06:50 PM »
Not that I disagree, but I find it strange that this is suddenly being seen as an issue when it's been going on for years. And it didn't even start with Obama, but went back to Bush Jr. and probably even before that. Not Yemen specifically, but the general abuse and situation that's been going on there with SA. What are they supposed to do with all those U.S. weapons that they buy as part of the petrodollar arrangement, after all? Let them rust on the shelf? Of course they're going to use them against their enemies after buying billions of dollars of them. It's not even a question of whether the U.S. should 'let it happen', but rather it's directly a part of the current (and previous) business arrangement. They're not going against the deal on this; this IS the deal.

rightleft22

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2019, 01:21:16 PM »
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I think having Trump in office affords us the best chance to sever ties with them

I'm not so sure. The relationship with SA is all about the money and the Administration has already demonstrated that it's not going to give up any of the arms deals regardless of what SA is accused of doing.

Maybe after the transition away from oil economy but I don't see anything changing much until then

DonaldD

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2019, 04:46:11 PM »
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Originally posted by Fenring:
Not that I disagree, but I find it strange that this is suddenly being seen as an issue when it's been going on for years. And it didn't even start with Obama, but went back to Bush Jr. and probably even before that. Not Yemen specifically
I think you just answered your own question: "this" is suddenly being seen as an issue specifically because the scope of the human tragedy in Yemen is becoming un-ignorable.

Fenring

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2019, 05:10:10 PM »
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Originally posted by Fenring:
Not that I disagree, but I find it strange that this is suddenly being seen as an issue when it's been going on for years. And it didn't even start with Obama, but went back to Bush Jr. and probably even before that. Not Yemen specifically
I think you just answered your own question: "this" is suddenly being seen as an issue specifically because the scope of the human tragedy in Yemen is becoming un-ignorable.

No, that is my entire point. It is not "becoming" un-ignorable, it has been already. I have proof of that: I found it impossible to ignore previously.

DJQuag

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2019, 07:33:53 PM »
Our relationship with SA always strikes me as a business decision and a military one.  I cannot think of a single person, of any political leaning I've spoken with who likes our is in favor of our support for SA. 

At BEST, they will grudgingly concede we "need" them.  That opinion, in my experience is rare.  Most are disgusted we support them or partner with them or sell anything to them at all. 

I expect to most, this is something our government does.  Not something America supports.  They compartmentalize it as, "nothing we can do about it" and go on with their day.

If you put on a national election ballot an item for, "immediately beginning the process of shutting down any bases, ending strategic partnership and banning the sale of any military hardware or training programs with SA", it would receive overwhelming support.  90% or more.  10% is my guess of international-affairs / military wonks who could weigh the merits of ending this partnership and come down in favor of maintaining it.

And this is why we need to talk about it. Bring it up.

I know in a lot of spaces politics is not allowed. Fair enough. In those spaces where it is, please mention this. The politicians act based dually on money they receive and perception of the votes they're gonna get.

If enough people talk about this maybe they'll do something?

Haha pipedream, I know.

DJQuag

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2019, 07:36:21 PM »
In my defense I'm pretty sure I've been pretty consistent about talking down the Saudis. They have literally no selling points, at least not from a moral perspective.

Hey, it's 2015 and they're letting women vote in local elections!

Hoo freaking yay.

Don't worry guys. Last year, 2018, they let women get a license to drive. Scary, I know, but somehow I feel they'll come out of this okay.

These are our *allies.*

And, again, they are systemically starving a population of people that they don't like with the aid of *us.* We are part of this.

Fenring, I get what you're saying. "Well, they did 9/11 so obviously we're all *censored*, why start caring now?"

We gotta start caring sometime, my man. Couple of Yemeni children died while you were reading this, btw.

DonaldD

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2019, 10:30:01 PM »
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I have proof of that: I found it impossible to ignore previously.
Just because you cannot ignore something, does not mean everybody else is also unable to ignore it. And if others are able to ignore something (as was the case with Yemen for many years) then that thing was not "un-ignorable"

Fenring

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2019, 12:29:44 AM »
Fenring, I get what you're saying. "Well, they did 9/11 so obviously we're all *censored*, why start caring now?"

Well, that's not really what I meant. What I meant is that caring about something when it becomes hip to do so doesn't speak well to the sense of justice about it. If it's about the principle itself then it would have caused consternation all along.

Fenring

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2019, 12:34:03 AM »
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I have proof of that: I found it impossible to ignore previously.
Just because you cannot ignore something, does not mean everybody else is also unable to ignore it. And if others are able to ignore something (as was the case with Yemen for many years) then that thing was not "un-ignorable"

I had to re-read this several times! Basically you can see my response just above for my answer. What I am saying is that there isn't suddenly a new thing happening; what's new may be the expediency of putting attention there. Sometimes this is ok; 'we were too busy before, but now that we can afford time to attend to it we will do so.' But often it's also just political scarecrows, virtue-rallying in unison at times that may be random (or coordinated), or else someone wanting a target dispatched and bringing everyone's attention to it to suit their agenda.

To be clear: I am not definitively against putting serious attention on SA now. But I am leery of sudden attention put on a situation that is not by any means new, and hasn't become particular different as of late. Who's agenda is it pushing the sudden outrage? But I will grant immediately that I would be very glad of a cessation of hostilities against Yemen.

D.W.

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2019, 12:52:42 AM »
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Who's agenda is it pushing the sudden outrage?
So it would be nice to not be in bed with SA anymore, UNLESS this particular catalyst for change feeds into the agenda of someone we don't like? 
 ???

Fenring

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2019, 01:32:53 AM »
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Who's agenda is it pushing the sudden outrage?
So it would be nice to not be in bed with SA anymore, UNLESS this particular catalyst for change feeds into the agenda of someone we don't like? 
 ???

It's not the object of attention that's the problem, but the objective; it's not always what you do, but why you do it that counts. If there's a bad guy, and finally we go after the bad guy, did we do so because we care about protecting others, or because we have an anger management problem and need a target? Do we go now because we tried to be patient and can't any longer, or because focus there will distract from another problem elsewhere? Do we go because we will hold our own council and took enough time to decide what needs doing, or because the media told us to and we believe whatever they tell us to?

These were somewhat hypothetical options, not necessarily relevant to the Yemen issue right now, but you get the idea that I'm driving at with them. So for instance, if there's a bad guy, and the reason I go after him is because I have an anger problem, actually yeah, it's better that I leave it alone. It's not that he isn't bad, but that it's bad for me to go down that route. So when I ask "why now" it's not necessarily on point to ask me whether I think people in Yemen are suffering. Yes, they are. But does us make us better, or worse, to do this thing, in this way? Does it feed into a bad system and make it worse, or does it make the place better? These questions are not answered merely by pointing and the target and verifying that it's a target.

Here's an everyday kind of scenario: a prominent guy in a small town knows that crime is afoot; he may even have a part in it. But now he's running for Sheriff and as part of his campaign he points fingers at all the criminals and says how bad they are. When asked about his sudden reversal on previously being either ambivalent or else even buddy buddy with them, and now suddenly all righteous about crime, it would be quite beside the point to say "but they're criminals, aren't they?" The issue in challenging the would-be Sheriff is in not allowing a hypocrite or worse - opportunistic dissembler, from moving public policy and focusing the public's attention how he chooses. Such a person in charge is far worse than run-of-the-mill criminals doing their thing.

TheDeamon

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2019, 01:49:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Fenring:
Not that I disagree, but I find it strange that this is suddenly being seen as an issue when it's been going on for years. And it didn't even start with Obama, but went back to Bush Jr. and probably even before that. Not Yemen specifically
I think you just answered your own question: "this" is suddenly being seen as an issue specifically because the scope of the human tragedy in Yemen is becoming un-ignorable.

No, that is my entire point. It is not "becoming" un-ignorable, it has been already. I have proof of that: I found it impossible to ignore previously.

Well, my inner conspiracy theorist suggests that the answer may be that the Media has decided this might an issue to roast Trump over during the 2020 election cycle, since nothing else seems to have worked.

Edit: It also "plays well" in the context of the Green New Deal because the House of Saud will not be cut off until the carbon based economy is largely behind us.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2019, 01:52:46 AM by TheDeamon »

Seriati

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2019, 10:17:57 AM »
So I have to admit, I know very little about what's specifically going on in Yemen.  Does this analysis seem like a fair write up?

https://www.lawfareblog.com/understanding-houthi-faction-yemen

Not Yemen specifically, but the general abuse and situation that's been going on there with SA.

That's one way to look at it.  Another would be to consider the impact of becoming openly hostile to one of the richest and most powerful Arab/Muslim countries in the world.  The one that has the largest foreign influence and the largest spin on education outside of its own borders? 

Who would you elect to make your new regional ally to replace them, or do you prefer a program of hostility to the entire region?  Are we to have no regional allies in areas where can't find anyone that aligns with our ideals?

Consider too, its been the express policy of the US for decades and is still the express policy of our western allies in the EU to engage with bad and moderately bad actors to try and bring them up to more liberal standards rather than to isolate them and let them fall even further.

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What are they supposed to do with all those U.S. weapons that they buy as part of the petrodollar arrangement, after all? Let them rust on the shelf?

I think the literal, express, and widely acknowledged purpose in putting those weapons in Saudi Arabia is to discourage Iran from openly seeking to claim the region through military might.  That's pretty much how they have been using them.

As much as you dislike Saudi Arabia, would the world be better if Iran took over the whole region?

Fenring

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2019, 12:06:11 PM »
So I have to admit, I know very little about what's specifically going on in Yemen.  Does this analysis seem like a fair write up?

https://www.lawfareblog.com/understanding-houthi-faction-yemen

There are so many details in here it's hard to know what to make of it. You'd have to be an expert in Yemeni history or something. If an article of this sort was written about recent U.S. history people on this board would never agree on its accuracy, so all the more hard to say about an article about Yemen.

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Not Yemen specifically, but the general abuse and situation that's been going on there with SA.

That's one way to look at it.  Another would be to consider the impact of becoming openly hostile to one of the richest and most powerful Arab/Muslim countries in the world.  The one that has the largest foreign influence and the largest spin on education outside of its own borders? 

Who would you elect to make your new regional ally to replace them, or do you prefer a program of hostility to the entire region?  Are we to have no regional allies in areas where can't find anyone that aligns with our ideals?

I have no problem recognizing a realpolitik motivation to have allies in a region. I disbelieve that there are many ideals in common there, other than the desire for money and power. To be fair, this would be grounds for many an alliance.

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Consider too, its been the express policy of the US for decades and is still the express policy of our western allies in the EU to engage with bad and moderately bad actors to try and bring them up to more liberal standards rather than to isolate them and let them fall even further.

Do you really think this is how the U.S. deals with bad actors? I find it implausible to the point of cartoonish to think that this is the general policy, although I won't deny that it ever happens. But where is the evidence of this happening recently, of making a signficiant rapprochement with a previously hostile or rogue state? I can't think of many instances, other than perhaps the U.S. reaching out to China a few decades ago, and Trump reaching out to NK recently. Mostly it's either regime change, or else picking sides and declaring the bad actor a villain. There are *so* many cases of just undermining or knocking over governments that are disagreeable, that it seems far more in line with the facts to suggest that seeking rapprochement happens on the rare occasion when it's politically or financially expedient, and in all other cases subversion or undermining are the preferred course.

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I think the literal, express, and widely acknowledged purpose in putting those weapons in Saudi Arabia is to discourage Iran from openly seeking to claim the region through military might.  That's pretty much how they have been using them.

I have to be honest, I find this explanation ridiculous. I can't think of a single occasion in recent memory when Iran was involved in an actual conflict they initiated against a neighbor, other than their war with Iraq in the 80's (and I'm not sure who started that one). The idea that SA needs billions of dollars of weaponry to defend themselves against Iran sounds like fantasy to me.

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As much as you dislike Saudi Arabia, would the world be better if Iran took over the whole region?

I find this as plausible as the idea that Russia is on the brink of taking over all of Europe. Not that either are fuzzy and cuddly, but in a scenario of constantly poking the growling bear, I find it dubious to point at the growling and argue that if we didn't take offensive measures the bear would take over the place. Sure, Iran, like any country, seeks to increase its influence in the region, just like anyone else would if given the chance. And in that region in particular there's a history tendency towards this breaking out into open conflict. But the idea that Iran is some evil tyrant and SA is the last bastion of peace and liberality...give me a break (I know you didn't say this). I can't personally find much of a difference between them, and if it's politically expedient to just choose an ally and go with it, then fine, but that doens't pair up well with then denouncing the morality of the side you didn't pick because they weren't as suitable an oil ally. Oh yeah, and because the evil side happened to kick out the puppet dictator that was installed there :p

Seriati

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2019, 01:05:57 PM »
There are so many details in here it's hard to know what to make of it. You'd have to be an expert in Yemeni history or something. If an article of this sort was written about recent U.S. history people on this board would never agree on its accuracy, so all the more hard to say about an article about Yemen.

Okay, well what is the basis for the conclusions that are being made about intervening there?

Is it just disliking Saudi Arabia without any thought to whether they are correct in this context?

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Consider too, its been the express policy of the US for decades and is still the express policy of our western allies in the EU to engage with bad and moderately bad actors to try and bring them up to more liberal standards rather than to isolate them and let them fall even further.

Do you really think this is how the U.S. deals with bad actors? I find it implausible to the point of cartoonish to think that this is the general policy, although I won't deny that it ever happens. But where is the evidence of this happening recently, of making a signficiant rapprochement with a previously hostile or rogue state?

I am not even sure how to respond to something like this.  Engagement has been the literal policy of the west since WWII.  It did get a bit derailed during the cold war, but even there that was prosecuted by the other side being isolationistic.

The entire premise of the UN and the multinational organization is based on engagement.  It was really only fringe players (Cuba, North Korea, Iran) that the west completely isolated. 

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I can't think of many instances, other than perhaps the U.S. reaching out to China a few decades ago, and Trump reaching out to NK recently. Mostly it's either regime change, or else picking sides and declaring the bad actor a villain.

So you've missed our budget for foreign aid?  In 2015 the US gave $18.25 billion in economic aid to 92 recipients and $18.23 billion in security aid to 143 recipients.  Here's an ABC AU article on it https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-21/here-are-the-countries-that-get-the-most-foreign-aid-from-the-us/9278164.  Here's a link to the EU Aid Explorer https://euaidexplorer.ec.europa.eu/.  The US version of the aid explorer is easy to find but I couldn't get it to load.

And this is before you even consider the impact of indirect aid (through the UN for example) that's heavily funded by the west, and any commercial arrangements created by first world companies and incentivized by the laws of the west.

Or before you consider the impact of being the largest cultural exporter on earth.

The idea that direct intervention is anything more than a flashy drop in the bucket is kind of nonsensical.


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I think the literal, express, and widely acknowledged purpose in putting those weapons in Saudi Arabia is to discourage Iran from openly seeking to claim the region through military might.  That's pretty much how they have been using them.

I have to be honest, I find this explanation ridiculous. I can't think of a single occasion in recent memory when Iran was involved in an actual conflict they initiated against a neighbor, other than their war with Iraq in the 80's (and I'm not sure who started that one). The idea that SA needs billions of dollars of weaponry to defend themselves against Iran sounds like fantasy to me.

Here's just 2 quick links, you can find about ten thousand with a google search, and it's actually difficult to find any arms deal with Saudi Arabia that doesn't mention the Iranian threat.  This one was for $15billion that specifically included systems to shoot down missiles from Iran http://fortune.com/2018/11/29/us-saudi-arabia-arms-deal/.  Or you could look at this Wiki leak talking about a deal that lays out almost immediately that it's targeted at Iran's regional ambitions.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_United_States%E2%80%93Saudi_Arabia_arms_deal

These are both recent, but you can easily walk back in time and find endless references to the need for Saudi Arabia to counter Iranian influence, and heck you can even find similar stuff related to Iraq if you keep going back.

You understand that this is little more than the exact same policy the West used doing the cold war?  Maintain an absolute advantage on the conventional level and be sure that at worst you can brake even in the mutually assured destruction game, just applied on a regional level.

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As much as you dislike Saudi Arabia, would the world be better if Iran took over the whole region?

I find this as plausible as the idea that Russia is on the brink of taking over all of Europe. Not that either are fuzzy and cuddly, but in a scenario of constantly poking the growling bear, I find it dubious to point at the growling and argue that if we didn't take offensive measures the bear would take over the place. Sure, Iran, like any country, seeks to increase its influence in the region, just like anyone else would if given the chance.

You do understand that Iran (and previously Iraq) have an actual history of aggressiveness.  This isn't some kind of mythological threat.  Iran is one of the top 5 exporters of terrorism and militant actions, in the region they directly fund groups in other countries that are in active rebellion against he government and they even set up proxy governments in several other states.

What is "not plausible"?

There are an awful lot of countries that would not take over the neighbors if given the chance, or that believe in expanding their influence in peaceful ways. 

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And in that region in particular there's a history tendency towards this breaking out into open conflict. But the idea that Iran is some evil tyrant and SA is the last bastion of peace and liberality...give me a break (I know you didn't say this).

You're correct I did not say that.  I said Iran is a known bad actor.  Who do you think we should be supporting to minimize their influence in the region?  Small countries don't cut it, it has to be someone that could stand up to them.

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I can't personally find much of a difference between them, and if it's politically expedient to just choose an ally and go with it, then fine, but that doens't pair up well with then denouncing the morality of the side you didn't pick because they weren't as suitable an oil ally. Oh yeah, and because the evil side happened to kick out the puppet dictator that was installed there :p

So that sounds like you'd prefer we were just hostile to the region as a whole, nevermind that would literally be giving truth to the idea that the US is anti-muslim, why would you ever want to cause the region responsible for most of the armed conflict in the world to consolidate against you?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2019, 01:08:19 PM by Seriati »

TheDrake

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2019, 10:08:18 AM »
Trump vetoed. We're staying in.

Crunch

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2019, 06:47:12 PM »
Why aren't we protesting against this?

Yemen has no oil. It's a third world *censored*hole all the way around the other side of the world. I've been to Yemen, there's nothing redeeming about it. It's hard to get people interested in *censored*holes that have nothing to offer the world.

Yemen like the really unattractive chick at a party that has a sh1tty personality layered on top of it. Nobody wants to date her and everyone knows why.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 06:49:49 PM by Crunch »

D.W.

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2019, 06:56:42 PM »
Super classy Crunch, but we're just asking that someone stops their "bro" from beating the *censored* out of her in the middle of the party.

TheDrake

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2019, 09:08:02 PM »
So what you're saying, Crunch, is that we shouldn't care about mass starvation unless there's something in it for us.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2019, 09:33:43 PM »
Maybe we should send in a UN mission like the one we sent to Somalia.

Seriati

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2019, 09:45:08 AM »
Super classy Crunch, but we're just asking that someone stops their "bro" from beating the *censored* out of her in the middle of the party.

Are we though?  It's not so clear from the reading I did.  Why do you think the reasons the "coalition" give are false?

Fenring

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #27 on: April 18, 2019, 10:12:31 AM »
Super classy Crunch, but we're just asking that someone stops their "bro" from beating the *censored* out of her in the middle of the party.

Are we though?  It's not so clear from the reading I did.  Why do you think the reasons the "coalition" give are false?

At best it's a proxy war, using U.S. weapons. At worst it's the U.S. propping up a country just like Iran in order to maintain tactical advantage in the region. But in this case we're talking about not just attacking military forces, like in Syria, but bombing everyone all around. You ought to detect a red flag when the forces the U.S. is supporting are fighting on the same side as Al Qaeda.

Seriati

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #28 on: April 18, 2019, 10:34:11 AM »
And shouldn't I detect a red flag when the forces on the "other" side are connected to Iran?  It's looks to me like Yemen is a collection of armed groups, and not just 2, multiple groups that keep realigning.  Explain to me how you got convinced that Iran's proxies are the girl who needs protection? 

By the way, Congress didn't vote that we go in and impose peace, they voted that we stop with some behind the lines support.  I've seen nothing, NOTHING, that indicates our removal from the process will in any way stop or even slow down what's going on.  I'm just curious why you think removing what has to be a voice counseling restraint particularly on attacks that could harm civilians is a better end result?

Again, you seem definite that we are on the wrong side and I don't see how you are getting there, can you explain that?  Or are you just advocating, like Congress, that our best play is to pull out, harshly condemn and then ignore what happens there going forward?

TheDrake

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2019, 10:54:48 AM »
I know I'm whispering in the ear of the guy who just broke your kneecap, but you should be glad because he was going to crack your skull until I intervened.

Fenring

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2019, 12:48:55 PM »
Seriati, if you're saying that we shouldn't intervene in cases of one nation warring against another, there's a strong case for that. I'm talking about a case where either we are arming some so that they can make that war, or else - possibly worse - we are actually inciting them on to do it so that they can require a regular supply of weapons. Don't you know that's know the supply chain of materiel works? It needs to be used in order to justify new purchase orders. The petrodollar system is way beyond just having an oil sale and a landing strip when American vehicles need it. It's an entire economic, political, and military strategy for the area, directly involving Russia and the desire to undercut their oil business and prop up someone (SA) to try to cut into Europe. If you can't see the connection between Yemen and that you should look more at the big picture.

DJQuag

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2019, 02:39:40 PM »
And shouldn't I detect a red flag when the forces on the "other" side are connected to Iran?  It's looks to me like Yemen is a collection of armed groups, and not just 2, multiple groups that keep realigning.  Explain to me how you got convinced that Iran's proxies are the girl who needs protection? 

By the way, Congress didn't vote that we go in and impose peace, they voted that we stop with some behind the lines support.  I've seen nothing, NOTHING, that indicates our removal from the process will in any way stop or even slow down what's going on.  I'm just curious why you think removing what has to be a voice counseling restraint particularly on attacks that could harm civilians is a better end result?

Again, you seem definite that we are on the wrong side and I don't see how you are getting there, can you explain that?  Or are you just advocating, like Congress, that our best play is to pull out, harshly condemn and then ignore what happens there going forward?

As others have pointed out, we sold them the weapons. They ARE our allies.

It's one thing to say "Well maybe the other side isn't so great either."

Another thing entirely to not get worked up if the ally we sell weapons to is using said weapons to institute a deliberate famine.

DJQuag

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2019, 02:42:25 PM »
Why aren't we protesting against this?

Yemen has no oil. It's a third world *censored*hole all the way around the other side of the world. I've been to Yemen, there's nothing redeeming about it. It's hard to get people interested in *censored*holes that have nothing to offer the world.

Yemen like the really unattractive chick at a party that has a sh1tty personality layered on top of it. Nobody wants to date her and everyone knows why.

Classy as always, buddy.

Civilians, women, children, whatever. Being deliberately starved to death due to an artificial famine.

But who cares, amiright?

They don't have oil. They have brown skin. And worst of all, I've heard rumours that they're...*Muslim*.

DJQuag

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2019, 02:48:32 PM »
But hey I guess that sweet Saudi money (much like the Israeli business welfare "foreign aid") goes right to American weapon manufacturers, so I guess we should sit back and accept that Arabs gonna Arab or something.

Fenring

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #34 on: April 18, 2019, 02:58:44 PM »
But hey I guess that sweet Saudi money (much like the Israeli business welfare "foreign aid") goes right to American weapon manufacturers, so I guess we should sit back and accept that Arabs gonna Arab or something.

Well, there's where it gets complicated. The system isn't just about getting Saudi money, but about swapping oil for money, that money back for weapons, and other facts included as well. It's just as much about keeping the American dollar in high demand as it is about a quid pro quo to get oil to America and money in the pockets of wealthy donors.

Crunch

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2019, 02:59:41 PM »
Why aren't we protesting against this?

Yemen has no oil. It's a third world *censored*hole all the way around the other side of the world. I've been to Yemen, there's nothing redeeming about it. It's hard to get people interested in *censored*holes that have nothing to offer the world.

Yemen like the really unattractive chick at a party that has a sh1tty personality layered on top of it. Nobody wants to date her and everyone knows why.

Classy as always, buddy.

Civilians, women, children, whatever. Being deliberately starved to death due to an artificial famine.

But who cares, amiright?

They don't have oil. They have brown skin. And worst of all, I've heard rumours that they're...*Muslim*.

Well, I care. Not sure why anyone wouldn't care. I'm just responding to the question about why there are no protests.

Bringing up brown skin and religion, that's on you.   Racists gotta racist, I guess.

DJQuag

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #36 on: April 18, 2019, 03:08:18 PM »
Why aren't we protesting against this?

Yemen has no oil. It's a third world *censored*hole all the way around the other side of the world. I've been to Yemen, there's nothing redeeming about it. It's hard to get people interested in *censored*holes that have nothing to offer the world.

Yemen like the really unattractive chick at a party that has a sh1tty personality layered on top of it. Nobody wants to date her and everyone knows why.

Classy as always, buddy.

Civilians, women, children, whatever. Being deliberately starved to death due to an artificial famine.

But who cares, amiright?

They don't have oil. They have brown skin. And worst of all, I've heard rumours that they're...*Muslim*.

Well, I care. Not sure why anyone wouldn't care. I'm just responding to the question about why there are no protests.

Bringing up brown skin and religion, that's on you.   Racists gotta racist, I guess.

Sure thIng. I'm just pretty sure if French children were being starved to death by Germans, you'd care a bit more. Just based on what you yourself has written.

I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

Seriati

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #37 on: April 18, 2019, 03:35:45 PM »
I'm not going to defend who's right or not inside Yemen anymore than I have.  I already told you I don't know much about it and I was hoping to get more insight.  It's clear that you guys feel you know enough to be certain, and it seems equally clear you're not going to share information that helps me get there.

TheDrake

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2019, 03:42:45 PM »
I'm automatically going to say that the people blocking food deliveries are wrong, no matter how righteous their cause or the geopolitical implications.

DJQuag

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2019, 03:50:03 PM »
I'm not going to defend who's right or not inside Yemen anymore than I have.  I already told you I don't know much about it and I was hoping to get more insight.  It's clear that you guys feel you know enough to be certain, and it seems equally clear you're not going to share information that helps me get there.

Sure thing. I get you.

Maybe the fighting men of Yemen have each pledged to kill a hundred Jews before they die. To be honest? I don't know.

What I do know is that it, to me, it ultimately doesn't matter. Not in the context we're talking about.

The Saudis have systemically destroyed the Yemeni's food production, as best they could. They have blockaded them, as best they could. They have sentenced to death women, children, and non combatents. All of whom are dying every day.

The Saudis themselves are cultural savages that demean their women and "forbid" gays. But...they're our allies?

War is war.

War crimes are war crimes.

Purposely submitting a population to starvation is a war crime.

Crunch

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2019, 03:57:06 PM »
Why aren't we protesting against this?

Yemen has no oil. It's a third world *censored*hole all the way around the other side of the world. I've been to Yemen, there's nothing redeeming about it. It's hard to get people interested in *censored*holes that have nothing to offer the world.

Yemen like the really unattractive chick at a party that has a sh1tty personality layered on top of it. Nobody wants to date her and everyone knows why.


Classy as always, buddy.

Civilians, women, children, whatever. Being deliberately starved to death due to an artificial famine.

But who cares, amiright?

They don't have oil. They have brown skin. And worst of all, I've heard rumours that they're...*Muslim*.

Well, I care. Not sure why anyone wouldn't care. I'm just responding to the question about why there are no protests.

Bringing up brown skin and religion, that's on you.   Racists gotta racist, I guess.

Sure thIng. I'm just pretty sure if French children were being starved to death by Germans, you'd care a bit more. Just based on what you yourself has written.

I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

Right. Just go ahead and double down on making up things I said. It's easy, ain't it?

DJQuag

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2019, 04:00:36 PM »
Why aren't we protesting against this?

Yemen has no oil. It's a third world *censored*hole all the way around the other side of the world. I've been to Yemen, there's nothing redeeming about it. It's hard to get people interested in *censored*holes that have nothing to offer the world.

Yemen like the really unattractive chick at a party that has a sh1tty personality layered on top of it. Nobody wants to date her and everyone knows why.


Classy as always, buddy.

Civilians, women, children, whatever. Being deliberately starved to death due to an artificial famine.

But who cares, amiright?

They don't have oil. They have brown skin. And worst of all, I've heard rumours that they're...*Muslim*.

Well, I care. Not sure why anyone wouldn't care. I'm just responding to the question about why there are no protests.

Bringing up brown skin and religion, that's on you.   Racists gotta racist, I guess.

Sure thIng. I'm just pretty sure if French children were being starved to death by Germans, you'd care a bit more. Just based on what you yourself has written.

I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

Right. Just go ahead and double down on making up things I said. It's easy, ain't it?

Nobody has to pretend, buddy. We all know how much you don't like Muslims. Your own words have shown us.

PS. You're an immigration expert, could you please go over to that thread and answer my question?

D.W.

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #42 on: April 18, 2019, 05:02:46 PM »
Quote
Nobody has to pretend, buddy. We all know how much you don't like Muslims. Your own words have shown us.
We poke pretty hard at each other a lot of the time but this seems to cross a line to me.  At worst his comments here strike me as brutally pragmatic or stating the truth we dislike facing about our country in a proactive/offensive way.

Going from that to "don't like Muslims" is a stretch, and bad form IMO.

DJQuag

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #43 on: April 18, 2019, 05:08:21 PM »
Quote
Nobody has to pretend, buddy. We all know how much you don't like Muslims. Your own words have shown us.
We poke pretty hard at each other a lot of the time but this seems to cross a line to me.  At worst his comments here strike me as brutally pragmatic or stating the truth we dislike facing about our country in a proactive/offensive way.

Going from that to "don't like Muslims" is a stretch, and bad form IMO.

He thinks Muslims suck. I absolutely believe that.

Hey Crunch, you think people who are faithful to the Quran can be good American citizens? Do you suspect what they believe is opposed to American culture?

Crunch

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #44 on: April 18, 2019, 07:51:18 PM »
Quote
Nobody has to pretend, buddy. We all know how much you don't like Muslims. Your own words have shown us.
We poke pretty hard at each other a lot of the time but this seems to cross a line to me.  At worst his comments here strike me as brutally pragmatic or stating the truth we dislike facing about our country in a proactive/offensive way.

Going from that to "don't like Muslims" is a stretch, and bad form IMO.

He thinks Muslims suck. I absolutely believe that.

Hey Crunch, you think people who are faithful to the Quran can be good American citizens? Do you suspect what they believe is opposed to American culture?

Not true, believe whatever makes you feel good, I don’t care but just know that you’re not being honest.

I’ve seen many examples of Muslims that are great Americans. I’ve worked with many Muslims overseas that I would help get to America anytime they wanted. I have seen even more Muslims remain faithful to their religion and still embrace America, if you really look you could probably find examples of this every single day.

You constantly seem to fabricate some idea of me that’s convenient for you to attack. You got TDS so bad it’s made you kind of nuts. You might consider taking a few days off from social media and the 24x7 news cycle, get some fresh air and renewed perspective, cause you’re losing your sh1t and it’s getting to unhealthy levels.

DJQuag

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2019, 06:41:51 PM »
Quote
Nobody has to pretend, buddy. We all know how much you don't like Muslims. Your own words have shown us.
We poke pretty hard at each other a lot of the time but this seems to cross a line to me.  At worst his comments here strike me as brutally pragmatic or stating the truth we dislike facing about our country in a proactive/offensive way.

Going from that to "don't like Muslims" is a stretch, and bad form IMO.

He thinks Muslims suck. I absolutely believe that.

Hey Crunch, you think people who are faithful to the Quran can be good American citizens? Do you suspect what they believe is opposed to American culture?

Not true, believe whatever makes you feel good, I don’t care but just know that you’re not being honest.

I’ve seen many examples of Muslims that are great Americans. I’ve worked with many Muslims overseas that I would help get to America anytime they wanted. I have seen even more Muslims remain faithful to their religion and still embrace America, if you really look you could probably find examples of this every single day.

You constantly seem to fabricate some idea of me that’s convenient for you to attack. You got TDS so bad it’s made you kind of nuts. You might consider taking a few days off from social media and the 24x7 news cycle, get some fresh air and renewed perspective, cause you’re losing your sh1t and it’s getting to unhealthy levels.

Lol. We've all seen your posts on Islam and Muslims.

Congrats on having a "Muslim best friend."

Lolol.

Crunch

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #46 on: April 22, 2019, 08:12:19 AM »
Congrats on being dishonest

Pete at Home

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Re: Yemen
« Reply #47 on: April 23, 2019, 08:47:35 PM »
I feel I brought up some substantial issues the other night about Yemen.

We can blame Obama for starting it, and Trump for continuing it. It feels fun for the whole family.

I could be mistaken but I've had a glance through. Doesn't look like anyone is discussing it.

Lotta kids dying every day from starvation through a blockade that is enforced/enabled by US/Western support. Why aren't we protesting against this?

Because we're afraid of being vivisected like the last guy that protested the sods?