Author Topic: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill  (Read 5356 times)

Greg Davidson

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Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« on: January 03, 2019, 10:18:32 PM »
Are you angry yet?

I just plugged my data from 2017 into the 2018 version of TurboTax to see what the Republican Tax Law does to the income of those in the 1%. There's still two provisions that TurboTax says that the IRS has not finalized their determination, so this is approximate. The difference is a savings of $13,600. Note that  includes a provision aimed primarily against wealthy Blue states that limits deductions for state taxes to $10K - if I came from a lower-tax state than California, the net benefit of the tax law to someone with my income would be $22,400.

So all of you who voted for President Trump and the Republicans in 2016 - how much are you saving on your tax bill this year? Do you think that this tax cut primarily aimed at the wealthy was a good idea? Do you still?

And this is income tax savings - don't forget that by cutting Corporate tax rates by 1/3rd, everyone who owns stock got about a  9% increase in the value of their portfolio. For my retirement account, that's about another 100K.

Of course, this tax cut has ballooned the deficit by $300B+ in just the first year (and that's when the economy is doing well - it will be disastrous when the economy slows).

Okay, any of you Republican voters angry yet? Because this was by far the single greatest impact that the Republicans elected in 2016 had on the country - this is what you got for your vote. And don't blame me - I voted (and donated) to stop injustice such as this.


Fenring

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2019, 11:19:28 PM »
Okay, any of you Republican voters angry yet? Because this was by far the single greatest impact that the Republicans elected in 2016 had on the country - this is what you got for your vote. And don't blame me - I voted (and donated) to stop injustice such as this.

Assuming the figures are accurate and this is an outrage just as you paint it (and I have no beef with your claim), would you in turn agree that on the other side of the fence it would have been an equal outrage for a Democrat President like Hillary to have committed America to unnecessary wars as a form of military corporate welfare? And I say this by hypothesis, of course, as this never happened, if *if* it had happened, would you be equally as outraged as you are about this?

Greg Davidson

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2019, 11:59:43 PM »
If a Democrat President like Hillary committed America to unnecessary wars as a form of military corporate welfare, I would absolutely be strongly critical.

I also believe that is an unlikely scenario (as is the similar suggestion that a Republican would commit to unnecessary wars as a form of military corporate welfare - in either case, (1) you don't need actual wars to drive military spending, and (2) paying companies to do work is much less like "corporate welfare" than changing the tax laws to cut taxes by 33%).



rightleft22

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2019, 10:33:56 AM »
Interesting data. I didn't realize Obama, who started his term in a financial melt down was able cut back the Deficit to where it was before the melt down.

When it comes to spending and saving I'm personally very conservative (preferring a balanced middle ground approach) and don't feel that the GOP economic philosophy is very conservative. I find it reckless.

I can see why lower cooperate taxes could encourage growth however it seems to me to be a short term verses long term planing. Based only on my opservations lower taxes very seldom benifits the lower and middle class, again long term.   

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Year               Deficit(in billions)   Debt Increase (by FY)    Deficit /GDP   Events Affecting Deficit
2008               459                   1017                            3.1%   Bank bailout. QE.
2009               1413                   1632                            9.8%   Stimulus Act.
2010               1294                   1905                            8.6%   Obama tax cuts. ACA. Simpson-Bowles.
2011               1300                   1229                            8.3%   Debt crisis.
2012               1087                   1276                            6.7%   Fiscal cliff. 
2013               679                   672                           4.0%   Sequester. Government shutdown. 
2014               485                   1086                           2.7%   Debt ceiling.
2015               438                   327                           2.4%   Defense = $736.4 b.
2016             585                   1423                           3.1%   Defense = $767.3 b.
2017               665                   672                           3.4%   Defense = $812.3 b.
2018 (est)       833                   1271                           4.0%   Defense = $824.7 b.
2019(est)       984                   1187                           NA   
2020 (est)       987                   1198                           NA   
2021 (est)       916                   1119                           NA   

Seriati

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2019, 10:35:08 AM »
Are you angry yet?

About the mischaracterization of tax cuts that were long over due and good for the economy?  Yes, would you please stop.

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I just plugged my data from 2017 into the 2018 version of TurboTax to see what the Republican Tax Law does to the income of those in the 1%.

Have they updated since last week?  TurboTax wasn't able to do it last week because of missing schedules.  I'm literally one of the few people that the tax change doesn't directly benefit, while my rates are "worse" and my SALT deduction is "worse" the removal of the AMT pretty much means the marginal difference should, hopefully, not be too painful.

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So all of you who voted for President Trump and the Republicans in 2016 - how much are you saving on your tax bill this year? Do you think that this tax cut primarily aimed at the wealthy was a good idea? Do you still?

Considering that real wages are up, jobs are up and growth is up, yes, it was a phenomenal idea.  You supported Obama dumping massive amounts of government spending into the system that didn't have anywhere near these results, why are you upset?  Is it just because an economic theory you dislike is producing results?

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And this is income tax savings - don't forget that by cutting Corporate tax rates by 1/3rd, everyone who owns stock got about a  9% increase in the value of their portfolio. For my retirement account, that's about another 100K.

That's great news!  Considering virtually every retirement system, including the pensions paid to union workers and government workers, is heavily dependent on market performance.  Are you really only happy if the rich are punished?

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Of course, this tax cut has ballooned the deficit by $300B+ in just the first year (and that's when the economy is doing well - it will be disastrous when the economy slows).

Sure.  Revenues are up for the year.  So much for honesty on analysis.

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Okay, any of you Republican voters angry yet? Because this was by far the single greatest impact that the Republicans elected in 2016 had on the country - this is what you got for your vote. And don't blame me - I voted (and donated) to stop injustice such as this.

Yes.  You voted to stop pay raises for the working class.  You voted to stop growth in good jobs.  You voted to shut down entire industries with good jobs.  You voted to continue to prefer non-US corporations and offshore tax schemes.  You voted to stop growth.

I am angry.  I'm angry at you for continuing to sell a bad story notwithstanding the evidence in front of your face.

Crunch

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2019, 10:43:06 AM »
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Based only on my opservations lower taxes very seldom benifits the lower and middle class, again long term.   

Have you ever asked why that would be? It’s quite simple. We have a progressive tax system. Prior to the tax cut, the top 1% paid  a greater share of individual income taxes (37.3%) than the bottom 90 percent combined (30.5%).  Since the tax cut, it’s expected that the top 20% will pay 87% of income tax.

It’s very hard to cut the taxes for people that pay little or no taxes. Demagogues work the angle of “benefiting only the rich” to take advantage of those that don’t understand our tax system.


Fenring

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2019, 11:03:25 AM »
It’s very hard to cut the taxes for people that pay little or no taxes. Demagogues work the angle of “benefiting only the rich” to take advantage of those that don’t understand our tax system.

If there really was all that extra money lying around to pass back around to the rich (since you agree that the poor weren't pay much tax anyhow) then why does it benefit the country again to give more to those who already have? Why not spend it on infrastructure, or border security, or anything else that can benefit everyone in the country simuntanesouly, including the rich? How abput spending it on a public campaign finance program so that corporate lobbying can be banned outright? This idea alone should be worth more to the rich than a tax cut; surely they would enjoy uncorrupted governance, right? ;)  Or could it be that the most powerful moguls stand to gain from things exactly as they are...

Lloyd Perna

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2019, 12:38:27 PM »
It’s very hard to cut the taxes for people that pay little or no taxes. Demagogues work the angle of “benefiting only the rich” to take advantage of those that don’t understand our tax system.

If there really was all that extra money lying around to pass back around to the rich (since you agree that the poor weren't pay much tax anyhow) then why does it benefit the country again to give more to those who already have? Why not spend it on infrastructure, or border security, or anything else that can benefit everyone in the country simuntanesouly, including the rich? How abput spending it on a public campaign finance program so that corporate lobbying can be banned outright? This idea alone should be worth more to the rich than a tax cut; surely they would enjoy uncorrupted governance, right? ;)  Or could it be that the most powerful moguls stand to gain from things exactly as they are...

  • There is no "extra" money lying around, our government spends far more than the tax revenue it takes from those who have earned it.
  • Nobody is "giving" more to those who already have.  They are taking less.
  • I think we should spend taxes on programs that benefit everyone.  I think the problem is how do we determine if a program benefits everyone or just some special interest?  Instead, maybe we should spend more efficiently, eliminate all the pork projects, government bloat and excessive regulations so we don't have to take so much money from our taxpayers?
  • We already have public funding of elections. Given that it has been settled that political spending by corporations is speech that is protected by the first amendment, I don't see how spending more public money on elections will ensure "uncorrupted governance"

NobleHunter

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2019, 12:47:32 PM »
  • I think we should spend taxes on programs that benefit everyone.  I think the problem is how do we determine if a program benefits everyone or just some special interest?  Instead, maybe we should spend more efficiently, eliminate all the pork projects, government bloat and excessive regulations so we don't have to take so much money from our taxpayers?

So what your opinion on this whole wall business?

Lloyd Perna

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2019, 12:52:27 PM »
I support a secure border.  I don't know, but I suspect that when you take into account the costs of illegal immigration that would be prevented over the long term that it would be at least revenue neutral.

TheDeamon

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2019, 12:53:03 PM »
It’s very hard to cut the taxes for people that pay little or no taxes. Demagogues work the angle of “benefiting only the rich” to take advantage of those that don’t understand our tax system.

If there really was all that extra money lying around to pass back around to the rich (since you agree that the poor weren't pay much tax anyhow) then why does it benefit the country again to give more to those who already have? Why not spend it on infrastructure, or border security, or anything else that can benefit everyone in the country simuntanesouly, including the rich? How abput spending it on a public campaign finance program so that corporate lobbying can be banned outright? This idea alone should be worth more to the rich than a tax cut; surely they would enjoy uncorrupted governance, right? ;)  Or could it be that the most powerful moguls stand to gain from things exactly as they are...

Nobody is "giving" more to those who already have.  They are taking less.

This cannot be emphasized enough. "Giving more money via tax cuts" only works if you have a construct where all income belongs to the government, not you, and it is up to the government to decide who gets what.

rightleft22

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2019, 12:54:02 PM »
Just based on my memory. In recent memory doesn't the economy tend to tank after a GOP administration - regressions, crashes, bubble bursting.
And oddly enough government becoming 'bigger' (smaller as it concerns economic but bigger everywhere else?

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I support a secure border.  I don't know, but I suspect that when you take into account the costs of illegal immigration that would be prevented over the long term that it would be revenue neutral.
That the question will a wall "save" money on the immigration problem? I'm not so sure
« Last Edit: January 04, 2019, 12:56:29 PM by rightleft22 »

TheDeamon

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2019, 01:01:53 PM »
  • I think we should spend taxes on programs that benefit everyone.  I think the problem is how do we determine if a program benefits everyone or just some special interest?  Instead, maybe we should spend more efficiently, eliminate all the pork projects, government bloat and excessive regulations so we don't have to take so much money from our taxpayers?

So what your opinion on this whole wall business?

What were some of the numbers I recall hearing recently? Something on the order of 53,000 Illegal immigrants are currently incarcerated in the Federal Prison system, and an unknown/unknowable(thanks to several states) number being held at the state, county, and possibly municipal level as well.

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/04/30/2018-09062/annual-determination-of-average-cost-of-incarceration

Says that in 2017 the cost was $36,299.25 per year per inmate, so that works out to a bit over $1.9 Billion per year just to incarcerate the ones in federal prison. Keep in mind, some states and counties report housing costs in excess of $60,000 per inmate per year.

Then of course there are the social services costs those "Undocumented immigrants" are taking advantage of, which some estimates place in the up to $136 Billion/year.

Or the matter that an illegal immigrant allegedly is twice as likely to take up other criminal activities than their legal/Citizen counterparts.

I think I can see a few ways it potentially could pay for itself in the long term.

Seriati

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2019, 01:05:55 PM »
If there really was all that extra money lying around to pass back around to the rich (since you agree that the poor weren't pay much tax anyhow) then why does it benefit the country again to give more to those who already have? Why not spend it on infrastructure, or border security, or anything else that can benefit everyone in the country simuntanesouly, including the rich?

I think Lloyd made a good point on this.  There isn't money "laying" around that you are repurposing from the rich to infrastructure.  I don't know if you recall the discussions with Pyrtolin, but s/he was correct about how money works.  Government spending creates new money, taxes destroy it.  The system kind of relies, though, on the naive belief that the two are connected to not undermine the value of money itself and ultimately the system.

However, even if you accept the idea you're pushing, that there are better uses for the money than letting the rich keep it, when has the government ever been better at spending money in ways that produce a better economy than private actors?  Keep in mind too, that even with something like 80% of the individuals in the country getting a tax cut, individual tax collections are way up.  Almost all that is coming from people making a lot of money.  Corporate rates are down, but collections are not down proportionately to the rate decrease. 

If you can make a good argument for how to develop infrastructure without massive cronyism and misappropriation I'm all ears.  Where's the results for Obama's green energy blitz?

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How abput spending it on a public campaign finance program so that corporate lobbying can be banned outright?

Every program I've ever seen for "campaign finance reform" has been specifically targeted to hurt the other political party disproportionately.  And none of it involves direct consequences on the politicians that are the ultimate beneficiaries.

TheDeamon

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2019, 01:06:01 PM »
Also, I guess I should give props to a talking head on CNN from a few days ago, sadly I can't cite/link to the quote as I doubt CNN was going to run a headline on her comment:

(She was arguing against building the wall by the way)
"If Trump's wall gets built, I can guarantee you that prices of goods in the United States would have to go up because the cost of Labor in the United States would have to increase."

TheDeamon

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2019, 01:08:23 PM »
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How abput spending it on a public campaign finance program so that corporate lobbying can be banned outright?

Every program I've ever seen for "campaign finance reform" has been specifically targeted to hurt the other political party disproportionately.  And none of it involves direct consequences on the politicians that are the ultimate beneficiaries.

The more I think about it as well, the more inclined I am to the view such "reforms" as little more than a taxpayer subsidy to Local Broadcasters and Newspaper publishers. Who would be seeing most of that money thrown their way in due time. In that respect, I'm more inclined to let "the market" decide what to spend rather than a politically motivated government bureaucrat.

TheDeamon

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2019, 01:10:48 PM »
If you can make a good argument for how to develop infrastructure without massive cronyism and misappropriation I'm all ears.  Where's the results for Obama's green energy blitz?

I think a lot of it found its way over to China ultimately. Although a number of major DNC Donors pocketed a lot of money as well. :)

TheDrake

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2019, 01:24:14 PM »
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Or the matter that an illegal immigrant allegedly is twice as likely to take up other criminal activities than their legal/Citizen counterparts.

Cute. So you slap "allegedly" on there and you can make up whatever crap you want? Is there any source at all that supports that?

Fenring

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2019, 01:33:00 PM »
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Nobody is "giving" more to those who already have.  They are taking less.

This cannot be emphasized enough. "Giving more money via tax cuts" only works if you have a construct where all income belongs to the government, not you, and it is up to the government to decide who gets what.

Yes, this is true if you consider a pure capitalist scenario where no one is entitled to anything other than what they grab for themselves. In this context "entitled to" simply means "I got it, hands off". If you're into natural law I think you'll find little justification that "any amount of stuff I have is mine by right, so hands off" could be construed as a natural human right. So in context of a pure laissez-faire system it's a right by virtue of it being decided as being the cornerstone of the system. But I doubt even among natural law supporters you'll find good backup for interpreting personal property as having no upper limit. However I actually agree entirely with your framing of things as not belonging to the government by definition; it's not theirs to dispense with, but ours. This is an important point. But it's a less important point than definition in the first place what "ours" is supposed to mean. If by "ours" you mean that a few very people will sequester vast amounts of property and wealth inside a fence and keep everyone else out, then I would advise that this is a recipe for catastrophe. If by "ours" one would mean that the people need to collectively decide how to apportion the materials of the world for the betterment of all, then that's different obviously.

At present the government serves a double purpose, and those two purposes are actually at cross-purposes. One purpose is to organize and dispense with the collective needs from a central position, so that everyone grabbing for their own gain isn't the result of 'democracy' (as the Ancients foresaw it would be). Another purpose is to perpetuate *itself* and increase *its own power*, which is apparently the fate of any large organization, regardless of what its purported goal is supposed to be. To whatever extent this second purpose is corrupt and inefficient, I would agree even with a John Bircher in suggesting that this needs to be stopped. And part of what makes this aspect so bad is corporate involvement in government, where resources theoretically the property of all citizens who contribute (tax money) is dispensed instead to interested parties who help those in government (corporate welfare, and in the case of a tax break, the 1%). At least the tax break is an equal-opportunity game, and in a sense merely returns the money to where it came from, neither better or worse for it. However that doesn't take into account the "ours" factor if we're considering the materials in the world in some sense to be a collective property. And I make this proviso specifically because in the event that one *does not* consider it to be such, then you devolve naturally into the scenario where there is no real right other than snatching things and holding on to them, which is a calculation purely of force: can you force others away from what's "yours" or not. When too much is in the hands of too few the calculations go off the charts and the guillotine comes out.

Therefore as a matter of pure strategy it would behoove the "unlimited power!" crowd to pass along some to the masses just to prevent revolt, and this has always been known to an extent. To the "collectively ours" crowd the calculus simply becomes to use that wealth as a matter of course rather than to let things become explosive before having to throw coins to the plebs.

But I would be careful with the nonchalant premise of "what's mine is mine", but it is so only at the sufference of those who live next to you. "Natural rights", such as they're understood, do not involve things like cornering the market, hoarding goods and property, or controlling the means of income of those with less power than you. It's certainly not what Aquinas would ever have understood it to mean, and certain not what natural law philosophers would likely mean by it. To whatever extent owning person property and goods is a natural right (and I would be inclined to agree that it is) this cannot stand as an unqualified definition without becoming nonsensical. As it's currently trumpeted it striles me as being little more than a carte blache to claim some moral high ground in amassing vast amounts of wealth and having the few dictate policy to the many. At that point you might as well call emergent aristocracy a "natural right" too.

Assuming one were to define "ours" as being more collective (and it doesn't have to be all or nothing on this point), the money being available is simply a factor of whether it literally exists and can be used, which is clearly does, because the government must have collected it in order to give it back. But if they don't even have it, and need to borrow against the Fed or foreign governments to pay it, then it's not a tax refund but a quantitative easing program of another stripe, which is a whole other kettle of fish. I'm operating under the assumption for now that a tax refund is "giving back" money that actually exists; this may be a fiction but for the purposes of moral analysis I think it should be seen in this way. And if the money exists to give back, then it exists to be used for other, much more important purposes as well, such as those I suggested above.

And Lloyd, no, campaigns are not all publicly funded, or do you think that lobbying is no longer a thing?   

Fenring

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2019, 01:41:45 PM »
(She was arguing against building the wall by the way)
"If Trump's wall gets built, I can guarantee you that prices of goods in the United States would have to go up because the cost of Labor in the United States would have to increase."

Do you agree that this is a downside? It would seem farcical to me to base any political position on the premise that illegal cheap labor is a good thing that must be perpetuated. May as well say that slavery would reduce costs even more :o

TheDrake

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2019, 01:48:09 PM »
Quote
(She was arguing against building the wall by the way)
"If Trump's wall gets built, I can guarantee you that prices of goods in the United States would have to go up because the cost of Labor in the United States would have to increase."

Do you agree that this is a downside? It would seem farcical to me to base any political position on the premise that illegal cheap labor is a good thing that must be perpetuated. May as well say that slavery would reduce costs even more :o

I think the discussion was in the context of the "net cost of immigration". Savings would have to be part of that calculation, no? A person paying an extra dollar to provide services to an illegal, and a person paying an extra dollar in increased costs are equivalent, mathematically.

TheDeamon

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2019, 02:17:07 PM »
(She was arguing against building the wall by the way)
"If Trump's wall gets built, I can guarantee you that prices of goods in the United States would have to go up because the cost of Labor in the United States would have to increase."

Do you agree that this is a downside? It would seem farcical to me to base any political position on the premise that illegal cheap labor is a good thing that must be perpetuated. May as well say that slavery would reduce costs even more :o

I recall posting previously that I think the biggest reason why Illegal Immigration hasn't been "solved" is there are a lot of organizations out there that fully realized this point(as she amply demonstrated), and prefer to keep it ambiguous for the purpose of keeping wages, and costs, low. They just generally are more careful about the arguments they present. It was refreshing to see one be (almost) honest about it.

I think she inadvertently made one of the best cases FOR building the wall. Then when/IF her prediction comes to pass, we have reason to see about making true, meaningful reforms to the immigration system in order to bring in the legal labor that is needed to fill those employment gaps which are causing prices to inflate.

TheDeamon

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2019, 02:21:59 PM »
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Or the matter that an illegal immigrant allegedly is twice as likely to take up other criminal activities than their legal/Citizen counterparts.

Cute. So you slap "allegedly" on there and you can make up whatever crap you want? Is there any source at all that supports that?

A video with talking points on Facebook? Awesome source that is, isn't it. The numbers do seem to line up with others I've encountered at other points in time over the past decade + so I'm sure a little bit of Google research would bear it out one way another. I phrased it as I did to reflect my own uncertainty as to the reliability of the numbers given.

Of course they also brought up another point that also is valid:

Fairness.

It is unfair that a person in India, Zambia, Botswana, and a number of other nations has to often wait 10+ years in order to legally enter the United States for the purpose of immigration, while somebody from Costa Rica can simply walk across the border, illegally, and be protected by legions of advocates who will work tirelessly to ensure they can stay... Probably at the expense of the person in Zambia then needing to wait even longer for their own legal entry.

Lloyd Perna

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2019, 02:24:00 PM »
And Lloyd, no, campaigns are not all publicly funded, or do you think that lobbying is no longer a thing?

Why did you add the word all in there, that's not what I said?

We do have public funding for elections available.

https://www.fec.gov/introduction-campaign-finance/understanding-ways-support-federal-candidates/presidential-elections/public-funding-presidential-elections/

TheDeamon

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2019, 02:29:22 PM »
(She was arguing against building the wall by the way)
"If Trump's wall gets built, I can guarantee you that prices of goods in the United States would have to go up because the cost of Labor in the United States would have to increase."

Do you agree that this is a downside? It would seem farcical to me to base any political position on the premise that illegal cheap labor is a good thing that must be perpetuated. May as well say that slavery would reduce costs even more :o

I recall posting previously that I think the biggest reason why Illegal Immigration hasn't been "solved" is there are a lot of organizations out there that fully realized this point(as she amply demonstrated), and prefer to keep it ambiguous for the purpose of keeping wages, and costs, low. They just generally are more careful about the arguments they present. It was refreshing to see one be (almost) honest about it.

I think she inadvertently made one of the best cases FOR building the wall. Then when/IF her prediction comes to pass, we have reason to see about making true, meaningful reforms to the immigration system in order to bring in the legal labor that is needed to fill those employment gaps which are causing prices to inflate.

Addendum to this:

Also this line of argument is also "important" in another way. If someone is really concerned about the ability of people to "earn a livable wage" then this should be something of a no-brainer position to see about supporting. Putting an end to illegal immigration and the ability of companies, organizations, and private individuals to benefit considerably from use of an abundant labor black-market which undercuts the ability for legal employees to compete price-wise.

You want to solve the income gap? Stop illegal immigration, and adjust immigration policies from there as labor needs fail to get met vs "acceptable pricing" of said labor market.

TheDrake

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2019, 03:52:31 PM »
Quote
Or the matter that an illegal immigrant allegedly is twice as likely to take up other criminal activities than their legal/Citizen counterparts.

Cute. So you slap "allegedly" on there and you can make up whatever crap you want? Is there any source at all that supports that?

A video with talking points on Facebook? Awesome source that is, isn't it. The numbers do seem to line up with others I've encountered at other points in time over the past decade + so I'm sure a little bit of Google research would bear it out one way another. I phrased it as I did to reflect my own uncertainty as to the reliability of the numbers given.

Of course they also brought up another point that also is valid:

Fairness.

It is unfair that a person in India, Zambia, Botswana, and a number of other nations has to often wait 10+ years in order to legally enter the United States for the purpose of immigration, while somebody from Costa Rica can simply walk across the border, illegally, and be protected by legions of advocates who will work tirelessly to ensure they can stay... Probably at the expense of the person in Zambia then needing to wait even longer for their own legal entry.

I did google it. Several sources hover at about 150%, but those are mostly violent crime, not any crime. Others say immigrants are less likely to commit a crime, but data is largely muddy in separating illegal from legal. Most state-level offenses can't be correlated. There hasn't really been academic work done. Any data measures convictions rather than offenses, so any elevation could easily be attributed to jury bias in convictions, public defenders, etc. So the fact of the matter is, no one really knows.

On the other point, I've always said that the solution to illegal immigration is to allow more legal immigration, work visas, guest workers, etc. Nobody should have to wait 10 years to come here.

TheDeamon

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2019, 07:34:14 PM »
Quote
(She was arguing against building the wall by the way)
"If Trump's wall gets built, I can guarantee you that prices of goods in the United States would have to go up because the cost of Labor in the United States would have to increase."

Do you agree that this is a downside? It would seem farcical to me to base any political position on the premise that illegal cheap labor is a good thing that must be perpetuated. May as well say that slavery would reduce costs even more :o

I think the discussion was in the context of the "net cost of immigration". Savings would have to be part of that calculation, no? A person paying an extra dollar to provide services to an illegal, and a person paying an extra dollar in increased costs are equivalent, mathematically.

But in the bigger picture it reveals bigger problems for Democrat talking points:

1. The Minimum wage needs to be increased because people can't live on it.
2. The border wall shouldn't be built because it will greatly curtail illegal immigration and cause wages to go up.
2.a. Wages going up will cause the cost of living to increase for all Americans.

Uh what? Doesn't that also make #1 a problematic item as well?

We want wages to increase, except for when we don't want wages to be increased.

TheDrake

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2019, 08:35:05 PM »
2. The border wall shouldn't be built because it will greatly curtail illegal immigration and cause wages to go up.

That's not a democratic talking point, and it makes a yuge assumption, that a wall will greatly curtail illegal immigration. Signs point to no on that one, a common Democrat talking point says it is a waste of resources.

There isn't really much indication that wages and illegal immigration are highly correlated, except in specific vocations.

The median wage earner in the US probably benefits from illegal migration.

We can all agree that food cost rise will cost billions for the SNAP program...

TheDeamon

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2019, 01:44:37 PM »
She went off script on that one. I left off the hypothetical "if it is built, and it works as advertised...."

Of course, the wall does nothing about those who enter legally and overstay for a few dozen years.

Crunch

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2019, 09:28:34 AM »

That's not a democratic talking point, and it makes a yuge assumption, that a wall will greatly curtail illegal immigration. Signs point to no on that one, a common Democrat talking point says it is a waste of resources.
A common democrat lie is that it’s a waste. Hungary tried a wall, it works:
Quote
Attempted border entries have fallen since the barrier was constructed. During the month of September 2015 there was a total number of 138,396 migrant entries, and within the first two weeks of November the average daily number of intercepted migrants decreased to only 15, which is a daily reduction of more than 4,500.

Anyone saying it won’t work is lying, the facts are that it works.

Pete at Home

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2019, 08:16:36 PM »
 Sting wept

 The Cold War ended because the Russians really did love their children too,  but in this generation of Americans,  both sides seem to hate the other side more than they love their own children.

 This does not bode well for America, for the human race, or for the survival of the biosphere .

TheDeamon

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2019, 06:43:01 AM »
Sting wept

 The Cold War ended because the Russians really did love their children too,  but in this generation of Americans,  both sides seem to hate the other side more than they love their own children.

 This does not bode well for America, for the human race, or for the survival of the biosphere .

Eh, it's more that most people want their children to have better lives than they did. We're fighting over what exactly constitutes "better" until some indisputable evidence comes to light.

The Russians had very clearly indisputable evidence that their way wasn't working.

Crunch

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2019, 08:30:58 AM »
Sting wept

 The Cold War ended because the Russians really did love their children too,  but in this generation of Americans,  both sides seem to hate the other side more than they love their own children.

 This does not bode well for America, for the human race, or for the survival of the biosphere .

WTF?

I was there when the cold war ended. It had nothing to do with Russian loving children.

Try it this way, WW2 ended because the Nazis really did love their children too. Makes just as much sense.

TheDrake

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2019, 08:45:10 AM »

That's not a democratic talking point, and it makes a yuge assumption, that a wall will greatly curtail illegal immigration. Signs point to no on that one, a common Democrat talking point says it is a waste of resources.
A common democrat lie is that it’s a waste. Hungary tried a wall, it works:
Quote
Attempted border entries have fallen since the barrier was constructed. During the month of September 2015 there was a total number of 138,396 migrant entries, and within the first two weeks of November the average daily number of intercepted migrants decreased to only 15, which is a daily reduction of more than 4,500.

Anyone saying it won’t work is lying, the facts are that it works.

Hungary doesn't have a wall. They also constructed their 13-foot high fence for $106 million.

But it is more their other policies than "having a wall".

Quote
Nearly every day, an immigration lawyer makes his or her way to a barbed-wire enclosure along Hungary’s border with Serbia, ready to walk an asylum seeker through the daunting process of pleading for safe haven in one of the most refugee-resistant countries in Europe.

Now these lawyers risk jail time if they so much as help a client fill out a complicated Hungarian-language form. Hungary’s parliament last week approved a legislative package aimed not only at barring the gates to almost any outsider — but also decreeing punishment for those who try to aid would-be migrants.

So, I'm going to say that it would be a massive miscarriage of American justice to put a lawyer in jail for helping an asylum seeker fill out a form. NGOs operating in the country risk having their employees thrown in jail. Their border patrol has inflicted hundreds of cases of intentional injuries, according to Medecins Sans Frontieres. They also take over any media that is critical of their PM, including his immigration policies.

By the way, they call their package of immigration law the "Stop Soros" legislation.

That may all sound pretty great to Trump and many of his supporters, but it's not really a model I want us to emulate.

Seriati

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2019, 12:02:59 PM »
wrong thread

TheDrake

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2019, 12:11:15 PM »
I was responding to crunch above, who suggested that Hungary built a big beautiful wall. We've drifted quite a bit from the original topic.

Seriati

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2019, 12:25:39 PM »
wrong thread

Sorry for the confusion.  I meant I had posted in the wrong thread.  I should have deleted the response instead.

Crunch

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2019, 08:10:00 PM »
Hungary doesn't have a wall. They also constructed their 13-foot high fence for $106 million.

What’s the functional difference between a fence and a wall?

yossarian22c

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2019, 10:01:26 PM »
Hungary doesn't have a wall. They also constructed their 13-foot high fence for $106 million.

What’s the functional difference between a fence and a wall?

I guess about 5.5 billion dollars.

DonaldD

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2019, 06:31:01 AM »
Well, a 13-foot fence is scalable by moderately agile teenagers and adults, and can be torn down using motorized vehicles, whereas a wall is made of concrete, always, unless it's not; is beautiful, and is completely impregnable (unless you have a ladder and a rope).  It can also have see-through - in fact, that's an absolute requirement, I believe.

Crunch

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2019, 08:43:15 AM »
Hungary doesn't have a wall. They also constructed their 13-foot high fence for $106 million.

What’s the functional difference between a fence and a wall?

I guess about 5.5 billion dollars.
That’s mney, talking about function. Is a 20 foot fence funcionally different from a 20 foot wall? Why would one be more effective than another? What I’m getting at is, why are people trying to make out that there’s a difference?

Crunch

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2019, 08:45:53 AM »
Well, a 13-foot fence is scalable by moderately agile teenagers and adults, and can be torn down using motorized vehicles, whereas a wall is made of concrete, always, unless it's not; is beautiful, and is completely impregnable (unless you have a ladder and a rope).  It can also have see-through - in fact, that's an absolute requirement, I believe.

I’m sure this is true in your imagination but that’s about the only place it would be. You channeling Ocasio-Cortez - not letting verifiable facts get get in the way of your moral truth.

yossarian22c

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2019, 09:45:17 AM »
Well, a 13-foot fence is scalable by moderately agile teenagers and adults, and can be torn down using motorized vehicles, whereas a wall is made of concrete, always, unless it's not; is beautiful, and is completely impregnable (unless you have a ladder and a rope).  It can also have see-through - in fact, that's an absolute requirement, I believe.

I’m sure this is true in your imagination but that’s about the only place it would be. You channeling Ocasio-Cortez - not letting verifiable facts get get in the way of your moral truth.

I can guarantee you 100% that I could safely get myself and my two kids (ages 5 and 8 ) over an 8 foot wall or 13 foot fence with just a little rope. I would be much more worried about lack of water and food in the mountains and desert than I would be about a wall.

Trump's wall is slated to cost $24 million per mile, there are some areas were a wall/fencing/barrier is useful - most of those places already have some kind of barrier. Building a wall through the wilderness is not an effective deterrent. Unless your going to have a boarder patrol agent stationed within viewing distance of the wall its useless as a deterrent.

DonaldD

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2019, 10:19:41 AM »
It's a chain link fence topped with barbed wire.  Unless policed actively, anybody with a big blanket, a ladder and rope can get over it.  And any pickup truck with a winch or person with bolt cutters can get through it.

TheDrake

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2019, 11:13:13 AM »
I see you've ignored everything else about what Hungary is doing, Crunch? Still think we should follow their lead? Think we should have border patrol beat the crap out of anyone who tries to get near the border? Think we should imprison lawyers trying to represent asylum seekers? Think we should threaten advocates who try to help illegal immigrants? Think we should shut down news organizations that report on any of the above?

Seriati

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #45 on: January 08, 2019, 11:27:34 AM »
This seems like a remarkably stupid argument.  If Trump gets a wall or a fence that stops or significantly curtails illegal immigration, he wins, we win and the country as a whole wins.  The fact that either a wall or a fence is breachable, doesn't change the fact that it is far harder to do that than it is to walk across a line on a map.

This is one of the cases where people are starting to ridiculously believe their own propaganda.  Walls work, fences work, but they are part of a solution and not an entire solution.

The idea that it's "too expensive," when we are facing a government shutdown that is probably costing more every day than the wall is nonsense.  Against a backdrop where we literally can not process the illegal aliens we do catch fast enough to actually be effective, where we are maintaining a massive border patrol, a massive court system, tying up huge amounts of government lawyers, housing and caring for both with respect to medical care and housing more people than we have facilities for, is costing us a fortune. 

There is no excuse, none, for supporting illegal immigration.  It has no rational place in an immigration policy.  Whining that our actual immigration policy is "broken" doesn't change that.  Get off your rears and demand your reps and senators cut a real deal with the other side and not just obstruct. 

NobleHunter

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2019, 11:34:36 AM »
And the shut down is over partial funding for a wall that won't replace or significantly diminish any of that. There's already hard barriers where they make sense. Extending barriers out into the deep wilderness will probably increase costs rather than lower them.

If you believe that Trump's insistence on the wall is because it would materially improve border security, then you've started to believe your own propaganda.

Seriati

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2019, 11:48:54 AM »
If there are already walls where they make sense then you agree that noone is able to cross the border illegally?

Then it's kind of hard to explain the hundreds of thousands we catch every year crossing the wallless areas, and the even more we miss if your argument really holds water. 

I don't know what Trump wants.  I'm not him.  I find it just as plausible that this is a vanity project, or an election tactic, as that it's a legitimate goal.  However, I think he's hit on too many targets - at this point - that are good for the country and not good for him for there to be any credibility to the assertion that he's not trying to do what's right for the country.

None of that matters though.  Securing the border is the right idea, and what we have done to date has obviously failed, what the left seems to be suggesting is that we continue to stick our head in the sand and ignore that obvious failure - and there is absolutely no question that little but politics is behind that position.  The left demands that we continue to let people die in the desert, that we continue to encourage them to try and make it, that we continue to fail to vet them or require that they comply with the law.

This one - to me - is one of the grossest moral failings of the left, the insistence on doing the wrong thing no matter what the actual human cost of that policy because they expect it to help them politically.  There is no truth, whatsoever, that an illegal immigration system is more moral than a legal one, which is where they tell themselves the lie that they are good people - they equate having a legal system with racism or hate - which is completely nonsensical - and then rather than fix the legal system they encourage flat out lawlessness with an illegal one.

NobleHunter

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2019, 11:56:22 AM »
Only 303,916 apprehensions were made at the border in 2017, it seems like "hundreds of thousands" crossing in the wilderness is a bit of an exaggeration. Not to mention, the number of apprehensions has been dropping steadily for years. It seems like whatever's being done is actually working.

https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illegal-immigration-statistics/

DonaldD

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Re: Injustice of the Republican Tax bill
« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2019, 12:00:14 PM »
Define failure.  People already cross the border where there are physical barriers in place.