Democratic processes kill 270 Indonesians

[Pete at Home]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-48083051

Anyone for a recount?

[Wayward Son]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-48083051

Anyone for a recount?

And to think around half of Americans think voting isn't very important... 

[Pete at Home]

To vote or not to vote is an important question. There's a time and place for conspicuous abstension.

[Seriati]

Voting is only as significant as the choices you are choosing between.

[Wayward Son]

The problem is that many Americans convince themselves that there is no significant difference between the choices.  Only afterward, as in the 2016 election, do they discover that there are significant differences.

[Pete at Home]

The problem is that many Americans convince themselves that there is no significant difference between the choices.  Only afterward, as in the 2016 election, do they discover that there are significant differences.

Both candidates handpicked by Putin. Differences significant but the process itself was more significant. I regret participating in that farce.

[Wayward Son]

"...doesn't matter if the game is crooked when it's the only game in town."--Heinlein

[Pete at Home]

Indeed, but sometimes "the only way to win is not to play."

I voted for H btw.  I think lower voter numbers might have sent the DNC a message. 

I'm not sure any of us would be having any conversation now if she had been elected. Putin is less stable than Kim-Jon-Un or Mao, but HRC seemed convinced that Reaganesque Make My Day strategy would prevail against him.  That combined with her Kissinger++ aggression and tendency to see invisible Serbian helicopters, and its hard to say that what DefCon we'd be at if we'd elected her. Plastic continents suck but thermonuclear war might very well be worse.

If not voting is anathema then why does the LeftPress demonize white female voters (who actually showed up but voted 53% for Trump) but doesn't criticize demographics like women of color who barely showed but overwhelmingly voted for HRC? 

[Wayward Son]

Dunno.  I don't read the "LeftPress." 

[Pete at Home]

You missed msnbc's white lady on white lady outrage about the 53% number?  Or are you protesting my "LeftPress"abbreviations derogatory?

Do you honestly think that Trump has proved worse than what his mainstream opponents said about him during the election?

[Wayward Son]

You missed msnbc's white lady on white lady outrage about the 53% number?  Or are you protesting my "LeftPress"abbreviations derogatory?

Sorry, I missed the one white lady you're thinking of.  Does everything single thing any single person says on MSNBC, et al, automatically become the doctrine of the "LeftPress?"

Do you honestly think that Trump has proved worse than what his mainstream opponents said about him during the election?

I did hear a number of horrible things he would do that, so far, have not come to pass (thank God!) from a number of opponents during the election.  So in that you are correct.

OTOH, I did hear a number of good things that were supposed to have happened from his supporters that have yet to come to pass.

And I've seen a number of horrible things that have come to pass that I know would not have happened had his opponent won.  Those are undeniable.  And those are the things I consider when I say that the election had actual consequences.

You can imagine anything under "what if" scenarios and use it to justify any conclusion.  But you have to admit that this country is in a completely different place than it would have been if Hillary had one.  A worse place, IMHO.

[Seriati]

I do have to admit, this country would be on a far worse track if Hillary had won.  We'd have an unaccountable federal government, routinely violating our rights, with a completely complicit and unconcerned media.  The rule of the autocratic executive would have continued, instead of being reduced.

Of course, I tend to think that most of what you think you've seen that's horrible is in your head.  Really, the most legit complaint has to do with family separations and that's not a new policy, and a deliberate result of of the policy decisions of the "good guys on the left."  If you hate those events and you're going to vote for Democrats you are really taking the unexamined approach to the limit.

[Wayward Son]

And I believe most of what you think isn't horrible is the result of information from a biased media that lies and refuses to report all the facts to you, along with philosophical ideas that are designed to help increase the power of another set of autocrats and reduce the freedoms and fairness of our nation.

But that's the nature of politics these days, ain't it?

[Pete at Home]

 

OTOH, I did hear a number of good things that were supposed to have happened from his supporters that have yet to come to pass

True. Ironically those cool ideas were bannon's agenda: invest in a jobs infrastructure program and shut down cash transfers to Mexico. And get rid of obama's twisted unconstitutional university campus star chamber courts.

Edited on realizing what you said addressed Seriati rather than me.

I''ll be surprised if you don't share my aversion to open war with Russia. A couple hundred megaton here, a couple thousand megaton there, add it up and it's a lot of global warming. Have you read what Hillary says about nuclear warfare?  It gives me pause, as does her history with Serbia, the Ukraine, and Putin.

[TheDeamon]

Trump is bad, bad enoguh I voted 3rd party rather than vote for him.

Hillary was worse for the nation as a whole, IMO, and not by a narrow margin.

Yes, It would have been a Left-Wit's dream come true, but that's a large part of the problem considering she would have had the backing of the MSM.

[Seriati]

 

OTOH, I did hear a number of good things that were supposed to have happened from his supporters that have yet to come to pass

True. Ironically those cool ideas were bannon's agenda: invest in a jobs infrastructure program and shut down cash transfers to Mexico. And get rid of obama's twisted unconstitutional university campus star chamber courts.

Maybe you missed a few?  The dear colleagues letter was rescinded, here's just one link http://www.sjuhawknews.com/dear-colleague-letter-policy-rescinded/.

Infrastructure talks are finally underway, but they've already been sabotaged.  Pelosi has said that she is bringing a massive infrastructure package but flat out said she expects new taxes to pay for it.  To translate, she's demanding that Trump pay for her pet projects (to support Democratic campaigns) and to raise taxes to slow the economy to hurt Trump.  Haven't seen any indication that she'll consider redirection of existing revenues.  Of course you also wanted to link this to jobs, but we currently have more jobs open  than people seeking them (thanks Trump), so the need for this as a jobs program has decreased.

And of course a threat to end remittances has been all over the news, here's again a random link.  https://www.theepochtimes.com/white-house-considers-restricting-remittances-to-mexico-to-stop-illegal-migration_2874015.html

I''ll be surprised if you don't share my aversion to open war with Russia.

I think he's joined his party members in the old pre-9/11 delusion that we are in a "post-war" society, and therefore we can expend as much vitriol as we want against Russia and other "bad" soveriegns consequence free.  And of course that we can instantly buy our way back into their good graces with bribes and strategic "resets."

The largest failing of the US political system is it's inability to act consistently with international relations.  The benefits of undermining the otherside's decisions are too great in politics.

A couple hundred megaton here, a couple thousand megaton there, add it up and it's a lot of global warming. Have you read what Hillary says about nuclear warfare?  It gives me pause, as does her history with Serbia, the Ukraine, and Putin.

There's  no reason to believe that Hillary was a better person Trump, and quite a lot of evidence to the contrary.  You are correct that Hillary would have caused wars and Trump has been consistently against them, but again, it's impossible for anyone on the left to see anything good in Trump - no matter how much it undercuts the principals they claim to pursue.

[Pete at Home]

Thank you for the links, Seriati. Glad dear colleagues rescinded. Curious what effect this has.

From your other link:

According to the World Bank, $33.7 billion in remittances was sent to Mexico in 2018, an increase of 21 percent from 2016. The outflow to Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras grew to $19.7 billion in 2018, a 25 percent increase from 2016. A significant portion of the payments goes to human trafficking cartels that charge at least $5,000 per person to help the migrants travel and enter into the United States

Can you see why i'd see that as a disappointment?  The main problems with Mexican immigration are the slavery and the national money drain. When immigrants "take our jobs" but spend all their money here, they create new jobs for us to replace the "lost" ones. When they send the money back to the home country, we're screwed. Trump's talk of destroying family unity immigration policies militaries towards a situation where immigrants send cash back to Mexico.  I'm glad talk has resumed about remittance blocking but i'd like to see them decreasing not increasing.

[Seriati]

Remittances are a tough issue.  That's just one link showing they are being talked about.  To my knowledge nothing like a workable plan has been demonstrated. 

Really though, there's a thousand contact points where we could make an impact on the harms caused by our illegal immigration system.  No matter what your politics you should be able to agree that the current system results in massive injustice and harm.  I find this issue to be the single biggest moral disappointment to me, as I view the left in actively opposing any ability to bring justice and fairness to the situation.

[Seriati]

Oh hey Pete, apparently there's now a broad agreement around $2 Trillion in infrastructure (no word on paying for it).

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/schumer-trump-agreed-to-2-trillion-for-infrastructure-after-meeting-with-dems

[TheDeamon]

Oh hey Pete, apparently there's now a broad agreement around $2 Trillion in infrastructure (no word on paying for it).

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/schumer-trump-agreed-to-2-trillion-for-infrastructure-after-meeting-with-dems

I know the Transportation(Frieght) sector was agreeable to a fuel tax rate hike. Of course, they wanted the funds raised on "their" tax to be spent on infrastructure that actually benefits them directly. So don't go taxing 18 wheelers an extra 10 cents a gallon to pay for bike trails and light rail systems, that's just going to piss them off.

And a large part of why they favor a tax hike is that the revenue continues after the initial law is passed, and so long as the honor the Highway Trust Fund, that means even more available funding in the "out years" for even further continued improvements to the transportation system.