Author Topic: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:  (Read 112054 times)

ScottF

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #450 on: March 26, 2020, 11:54:28 AM »
No matter who was in office, every move they made would be criticized. You may think Trump is uniquely making errors that are obvious to everyone but that's your bubble.

If it was [insert your most capable/favorite leader] there would be an equal avalanche of peanut gallery comments, giving point-by-point critique on all the mistakes, just not from you.

The Trump situation is unique with regard to the media's unwavering focus to undermine or misrepresent all of his moves, good, bad and neutral. Even though the vast number of those "moves" that have any substance are being prescribed by likely the same experts [most capable leader] would have leveraged.

Kasandra

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #451 on: March 26, 2020, 11:58:35 AM »
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Thank God Trump is on top of this and doing what is right.

Joe? Not so much.

I'll probably kick myself for asking this when I see your answer, but what should Joe be doing?

Kasandra

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #452 on: March 26, 2020, 12:02:28 PM »
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The Trump situation is unique with regard to the media's unwavering focus to undermine or misrepresent all of his moves, good, bad and neutral. Even though the vast number of those "moves" that have any substance are being prescribed by likely the same experts [most capable leader] would have leveraged.

You mistake the press being skeptical and critical for having a bias.  This isn't a unique situation for that reason. If there's one thing that every President has agreed on, it's that the press made their lives miserable.  Get that, every President.  It is unique in that we have a President who fudges the truth wherever and whenever he feels like it and hates to be contradicted or challenged when he does it.  His bad reputation precedes him wherever he goes.

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #453 on: March 26, 2020, 12:48:34 PM »
I've heard that people are creating anti-bodies after catching the virus and recovering, and that their anti-bodies can be used to inoculate others. The only way to stop the mortality rate is to stop the spread and better treat the disease.

Not quite. The antibodies can be used to help others fight off an active infection. But it won't grant anything akin to a limited immunity. This methodology has been known and used for decades. It's also resource intensive and fairly expensive, which is why it doesn't generally see much use.

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #454 on: March 26, 2020, 01:01:02 PM »
For other comparisons(US numbers, as per wiki):
37,806 people died in automotive accidents in 2016.
47,173 suicides happened in 2017 (mostly with firearms)
Fox News: "FAUCI: I think that's a false equivalency to compare traffic accidents with -- I mean, that's totally way out, that's really a false equivalency."

Eh, not really. Particularly when you get into the detail that virtually all motor vehicle accidents are preventable. As they almost invariably are the result of poor choices on the part of at least one of the vehicle operators involved. A lot of them come down to the simple expedient of the driver was either driving too fast for conditions, or not paying proper attention to the road. (Or didn't properly inspect their vehicle prior to using it--didn't know their tire was flat, properly maintain it(bald tires on a wet road, brakes which they know should have been replaced long ago), etc)

Which is somewhat apt with regards to Covid19 and the large-scale effort to curb community spread currently underway. A LOT of the cases now being seen were entirely preventable, if people had heeded medical advice from a month ago.

And like automotive accidents, there is a certain bar that society has created where we basically shrug and go "couldn't be helped."

However, unlike automotive accidents, covid19 has potential to be worse than that by a couple orders of magnitude. Also outside of mutli-vehicle pileups, individuals making poor choices on the road rarely leads to exponential growth curves in regards to near-term consequences with regards to fatalities.

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #455 on: March 26, 2020, 01:07:02 PM »
No matter who was in office, every move they made would be criticized. You may think Trump is uniquely making errors that are obvious to everyone but that's your bubble.

If it was [insert your most capable/favorite leader] there would be an equal avalanche of peanut gallery comments, giving point-by-point critique on all the mistakes, just not from you.

Agreed. It's part of why I went on something of a rant about the national stockpile situation the other day. No matter who was president, that was going to be an issue which was going to crop up. Likewise, I have doubts Hillary would have shut down international travel any more quickly or effectively than Trump did.

There probably would have other differences along the margins, but I have doubts about the outcome being significantly different. Well, other than the Democrats would likely already be pushing for numerous permanent expansions of federal powers.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #456 on: March 26, 2020, 01:56:15 PM »
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Eh, not really. Particularly when you get into the detail that virtually all motor vehicle accidents are preventable.
This simply ignores reality.  So are deaths by lightning.  So are deaths by falls.  So are deaths associated to post-surgical infections for non-emergency surgeries.

Of course, we already avoid, statistically, many car deaths by enforcing air bags, seat belts, re-inforced frames, bumpers, training, traffic signs and lights, painted lines on the road, driving rules...

Wayward Son

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #457 on: March 26, 2020, 02:17:54 PM »
Definitely not these days.

I think the larger question is the long term damage we're willing to absorb to mitigate the estimated/modeled deaths (e.g. 50% unemployment, financial collapse, etc.).

There is also the physical damage to consider.  Some of those who survive the disease will no longer be 100%.  Scarring of lung tissue will occur in some people.

Not to mention time off to take care of sick children, parents, friends and relatives.

Do those who advocate just letting people catch it consider those implications, too?

LetterRip

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #458 on: March 26, 2020, 02:30:14 PM »
No matter who was in office, every move they made would be criticized. You may think Trump is uniquely making errors that are obvious to everyone but that's your bubble.

If it was [insert your most capable/favorite leader] there would be an equal avalanche of peanut gallery comments, giving point-by-point critique on all the mistakes, just not from you.

Agreed. It's part of why I went on something of a rant about the national stockpile situation the other day. No matter who was president, that was going to be an issue which was going to crop up.

No it wasn't - any half competent administration would have followed the guide - one of the first steps is to check the stockpile and to make sure that there will be enough to meet demand.

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Likewise, I have doubts Hillary would have shut down international travel any more quickly or effectively than Trump did.

Quite likely both more quickly and effectively.  When Fauci recommended it - she would have asked intelligent questions, she would have understood what was happening and why.

The science on this isn't too difficult and anyone reasonably intelligent can get the information to do the right thing.  Clinton is plenty intelligent enough.  Trump simply lacks even basic understanding of anything, he simply can't understand what the experts are saying and recommending even when extremely dumbed down.

ScottF

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #459 on: March 26, 2020, 03:01:58 PM »
No it wasn't - any half competent administration would have followed the guide - one of the first steps is to check the stockpile and to make sure that there will be enough to meet demand.

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Likewise, I have doubts Hillary would have shut down international travel any more quickly or effectively than Trump did.

Quite likely both more quickly and effectively.  When Fauci recommended it - she would have asked intelligent questions, she would have understood what was happening and why.

Riiiight. Her intelligent fact-gathering and reaction speeds in times of crisis are the stuff of legend.

I'm 100% open to Trump having missed opportunities and made sub-optimal decisions. The fact that you think his decisions are a direct result of him not having the basic intelligence to understand what his experts say makes me feel...bad for you.

yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #460 on: March 26, 2020, 03:11:30 PM »
Riiiight. Her intelligent fact-gathering and reaction speeds in times of crisis are the stuff of legend.

I'm 100% open to Trump having missed opportunities and made sub-optimal decisions. The fact that you think his decisions are a direct result of him not having the basic intelligence to understand what his experts say makes me feel...bad for you.

There is little dispute to the fact that Hillary is intelligent. Many people exiting the Trump admin have commented on his lack of interest into delving into the issues. Maybe its lack of interest, attention span, or intelligence but I don't think anyone has ever confused Trump for a policy wonk.

Has Trump taken the time to understand the issues or does he simply spout off ideas, dates, and potential cures half cocked?

Trump has a certain kind of intelligence, but understanding epidemiology and predictive modeling doesn't seem to be in his wheel house. And he also doesn't seem to be the type of person to defer constantly to those who are experts. Its a dangerous combination.

ScottF

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #461 on: March 26, 2020, 03:27:01 PM »
I wasn't making on a comment on her overall intelligence, that would be silly and put me in the same boat as those who say Trump is "dumb".

ScottF

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #462 on: March 26, 2020, 03:32:55 PM »
My life when pressured to discuss politics:


MARYSVILLE, OH—Local man Dennis Pavone is a middle-of-the-road conservative. He's not crazy about President Donald Trump yet finds himself constantly being forced to defend the man against ever more deranged attacks from both the left and the Never Trump right.

Pavone says he's always getting dragged into arguments where the accusations leveled against Trump are so outlandish that he's forced to take the president's side.

"OK, I'm really not a big Trump fan, so please stop making me defend him, you psychos," he wrote in a recent Twitter thread after a progressive accused Trump of forcing a couple to drink aquarium cleaner. "Seriously, how insane do you people have to be to make me side with Trump every time? I didn't even vote for him!"

Recent social media posts saying Trump will be responsible for millions of coronavirus deaths have only exacerbated Pavone's dilemma, as he's not a Trump guy but can't bring himself to be as unhinged as those who oppose Trump. The media's constant distorted reporting of everything Trump says and does also puts Pavone in "a real pickle," as he has to pick between condoning wild-eyed conspiracy theories about the president and begrudgingly supporting the man pretty often.

"Stop putting me in this position, guys!"

If this keeps up, Pavone says he may just resign himself to becoming a Trump supporter. "He's the worst option except for everyone else."

https://babylonbee.com/news/man-just-wishes-people-would-stop-making-him-defend-trump


DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #463 on: March 26, 2020, 04:02:44 PM »
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after a progressive accused Trump of forcing a couple to drink aquarium cleaner.
You can find somebody, somewhere on the internet that will say anything.

Of course, Trump didn't "force" anybody to do anything - but he did irresponsibly give misinformation about drugs that led people to pretty predictably act in unhealthy and dangerous ways (nobody is claiming the Nigerians who had chloroquine poisonings ingested aquarium cleaner, BTW).

LetterRip

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #464 on: March 26, 2020, 04:06:33 PM »
I wasn't making on a comment on her overall intelligence, that would be silly and put me in the same boat as those who say Trump is "dumb".

A close relative is going through vascular dementia - he was 3-4 standard deviations above normal IQ (ie 145-160 IQ) in his 30's ,his IQ is around 70 now (68 years old) when he was tested 4 years ago.  He has extraordinary difficulty with basic reasoning and everyday tasks - and rapidly becomes angry and frustrated with even slight nuance, and frequently misunderstands even basic explanations.  Everything I've seen suggests that Trump is facing similar mental challenges.  It is one of the horrific ravages of aging.  I don't see how anyone can be oblivious to the signs of dementia that Trump is showing.

I think Biden is also showing strong signs of dementia - he doesn't seem as bad to me as Trump, but I've seen a lot less of him.  Sanders seems ok - but again I haven't had much exposure to his speaking, and Warren seems to be showing no signs.

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #465 on: March 26, 2020, 04:51:20 PM »
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after a progressive accused Trump of forcing a couple to drink aquarium cleaner.
You can find somebody, somewhere on the internet that will say anything.

Of course, Trump didn't "force" anybody to do anything - but he did irresponsibly give misinformation about drugs that led people to pretty predictably act in unhealthy and dangerous ways (nobody is claiming the Nigerians who had chloroquine poisonings ingested aquarium cleaner, BTW).

LOL, you do realize he was quoting the BabylonBee?

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #466 on: March 26, 2020, 04:59:12 PM »
Am I supposed to know  or care who "BabylonBee" is? Also, "after a progressive accused Trump of forcing a couple to drink aquarium cleaner." is not a quote, you understand...

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #467 on: March 26, 2020, 05:11:18 PM »
They've been discussed on this forum in the past few months even.

They're a conservative version of the Onion. They're a satire site.

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #468 on: March 26, 2020, 07:32:12 PM »
...Everything I've seen suggests that Trump is facing similar mental challenges.  It is one of the horrific ravages of aging.  I don't see how anyone can be oblivious to the signs of dementia that Trump is showing.
You've seen something that points to dementia? Funny - Those who know him put him on an energy and cognitive level far above other pols they deal with. There are no signs of dementia with Trump - just insults and disinformation by jealous opponents. They wish they could do what he can.

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...I think Biden is also showing strong signs of dementia - he doesn't seem as bad to me as Trump, but I've seen a lot less of him.  Sanders seems ok - but again I haven't had much exposure to his speaking, and Warren seems to be showing no signs.
You should stay out of the condemnation based on dementia bandwagon. It was Hillary who has come unhinged first, then Pelosi, and others, Mueller was an embarrassment. Bernie has more left in his tank than Biden does - but he is not up to being able to debate Trump. Wait until the first debate with Biden one-on-one against Trump if you want to cringe, and see the difference. Why do those on the Left use projection as their favorite rationalization?

Seriati

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #469 on: March 27, 2020, 02:26:18 PM »
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The Trump situation is unique with regard to the media's unwavering focus to undermine or misrepresent all of his moves, good, bad and neutral. Even though the vast number of those "moves" that have any substance are being prescribed by likely the same experts [most capable leader] would have leveraged.

You mistake the press being skeptical and critical for having a bias.

No, actually you mistake a bias for honest skepticism.  You can see a difference if you pay honest attention.  Skepiticism and critical thought would have the press honestly report Trump's position, give fair weight to to considering the factors upon which Trump's decisions are based and then argue or explain why other factors - in that reporter's opinion - outweigh the factors Trump relied upon.

Bias on the other hand is apparent when the coverage is 95%+ critical, no matter what position Trump takes the articles are written to describe it as evil or wrong, positions are misstated, the rationales and reasoning upon which they are based are ignored or misrepresented - certainly not fairly considered or weighted.

I mean it's like the DNC Senators who released press statements opposing the Kavanaugh nomination with a fill in the blank for the nominee's name.  It's just bias.

Kasandra

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #470 on: March 27, 2020, 02:32:15 PM »
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No, actually you mistake a bias for honest skepticism.

This is a dance routine, not a discussion.  You can't see Trump for what he is, but we've been here many times before about every political issue.  I'm not playing this one any more.  As the great philosopher, Crunch, once said, whatever.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #471 on: March 30, 2020, 10:09:39 AM »
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How do you go from [10,000] to 20,000 masks [prior to the pandemic] — to 300,000?  Something’s going on. And you ought to look into it as reporters. Where are the masks going? Are they going out the back door? … And we have that happening in numerous places.

I don’t think it’s hoarding,... I think maybe it’s worse than hoarding.

Kasandra

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #472 on: March 30, 2020, 10:29:00 AM »
He's right, it's worse than hoarding.  They are simply throwing them out after one, two or three uses!!!

Kasandra

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #473 on: March 30, 2020, 10:38:30 AM »
They speak for Trump, so...

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“Fox News tried to do their original playbook, which was dismiss it as a hoax, say that this is another partisan attempt by Democrats to hurt Donald Trump, and this was the case where they could not prevent reality,” Sherman said. “Fox News is a very powerful media organization, but it cannot stop people from dropping dead.”

Sherman added that his conversations with Fox insiders revealed “a real concern inside the network that their early downplaying of the coronavirus actually exposes Fox News to potential legal action by viewers who maybe were misled and actually have died from this.”

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #474 on: March 30, 2020, 10:40:59 AM »
I'm pretty sure Fox News is safe from action taken by viewers that have died...

Kasandra

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #475 on: March 30, 2020, 10:55:36 AM »
According to FOX they still vote, so why should that matter?

LetterRip

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #476 on: March 30, 2020, 11:28:26 AM »
I'm pretty sure Fox News is safe from action taken by viewers that have died...

They aren't from the survivors of said individuals.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #477 on: March 30, 2020, 11:33:59 AM »
Yes but
a) those were not the words used and
b) saying it that way is less funny (as in, not funny)

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #478 on: April 21, 2020, 09:38:35 AM »
I’ve had great “ratings” my whole life, there’s nothing unusual about that for me. The White House News Conference ratings are “through the roof”(Monday Night Football, Bachelor Finale , @nytimes) but I don’t care about that. I care about going around the Fake News to the PEOPLE!

Wtf are you talking about ratings?

Seriati

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #479 on: April 21, 2020, 11:10:01 PM »
They speak for Trump, so...

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“Fox News tried to do their original playbook, which was dismiss it as a hoax, say that this is another partisan attempt by Democrats to hurt Donald Trump, and this was the case where they could not prevent reality,” Sherman said. “Fox News is a very powerful media organization, but it cannot stop people from dropping dead.”

Sherman added that his conversations with Fox insiders revealed “a real concern inside the network that their early downplaying of the coronavirus actually exposes Fox News to potential legal action by viewers who maybe were misled and actually have died from this.”

I find it fascinating that false statements made by the left media get imbedded so far into their adherents mentalities that they not only don't realize they are false they repeat them as if they themselves had verified the reality of the statements.

The most common source of the "claim" that Fox tried to "dismiss" the Coronavirus as a hoax is a trimmed video of Sean Hannity.  Even though its absolutely clear that Hannity spent a good chunk of the hour talking about the virus being a serious matter, that the left media was overplaying to cause panic.  This is line, as it's usually trimmed and played played, though sometimes it's just the last sentence by itself. "All right. So that's the point. I mean, scaring the living hell out of people and I see it again. It's like oh, let's let bludgeon Trump with this new hoax."
 
They then pretend that this clip is Hannity calling the virus a hoax, which in fact is not they case.  They ignore completely that the comment in context was calling the Left media's decision to cover the virus from the most panic provoking way possible a hoax.  It's literally imbedded in an hour long program that not only referred to the Coronavirus as a serious matter more than once but also gave out what was pretty much the medical prevention advice at the time.

For context, the quote was from the March 9th program, here's the transcript (which you could have found before you decided to repeat a lie). https://www.foxnews.com/transcript/rep-devin-nunes-we-need-fisa-to-protect-america-but-not-at-the-expense-of-our-liberty.  Number of US deaths at the time?  Zero.  Infections?  According to our data now 647, but they wouldn't have known that at the time.

For context the fuller passage from a call with Doug Collins, who was self quarantining after the CPAC exposure.  You may recall, at that point, we still were hoping to be able to control the spread by sick people going into quarantine, largely because Chines  data on spread was still influential.  You'll note that nothing he says about the virus itself was false, or known to be untrue at the time( or maybe you won't, blinders and all):
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HANNITY: But in all seriousness, I think we got to be very real with the American people. I don't like how we are scaring people unnecessarily. And that is that unless you have a comp -- an immune system that's compromised and you are older, and you have other underlying health issues, you are not going to die 99 percent from this virus, correct?

REP. DOUG COLLINS (R-GA) (via telephone): That's correct, Sean. It's good to be with you again.

HANNITY: All right. So that's the point. I mean, scaring the living hell out of people and I see it again. It's like oh, let's let bludgeon Trump with this new hoax.

COLLINS: Yes, and I think what we're looking at here, though, Sean, is something that the American people needed to talk about. It's what (INAUDIBLE) myself and others are following the guidelines that the administration has put out, and we're making sure that people know that just like coming in contact with someone doesn't necessarily mean you get it.

It's also just like coming up with the comments that you always had, you do the proper procedures. You wash your hands. You stay away from people if you're sick.

If you get sick, go to the doctor. The administration has done a wonderful job -- if you need a test, the Trump administration has made sure that doctors can give tests to those who need them.

I have not had a test. I'm passed the incubation period. But we're wanting (ph) to make sure that when people follow the rules, when they follow what is out there, there's no need for panic. There's no need for what we're seeing and there just needs to be a calm assertiveness that you do what is right and things will -- and this virus can be contained in a way it has. It's going to still continue to grow, but we are not going to see it in ways of fear.

And I think that's one of the reasons why I'm wanting, you know, to talk to you tonight and also say, look, I may be healthy. I'm going to be and I will be out of this in a few days.

This is after, by the way, Hannity expressly referred to the Coronavirus a serious issue multiple times.  I grant he was more optimistic than later events would prove out, but at the time he was conveying what we actually knew.  Generally low rates of significant problems in those under 60.  Effectively, at the time the flu (without a flue shot) was believed to be more dangerous to the under 50 crowd.

Heck the show opened up with this statement about the "hoax," which makes it much clearer.  Maybe ask yourself if the left media is really so stupid as to be confused about what was said.   You'll note they neer use this clip from the exact same show.

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If you are over the mass hysteria, if you're over politicizing and weaponizing the coronavirus, you are not alone. That's why tonight, we are focused on two major stories. First, we're going to call out anyone and everyone who's using this virus as a political weapon against the president.

It's sick, it's sad, but predictable. I'm sure in the end, the mob and the media -- well, they will be advancing their new conspiracy theory and their newest hoax. Probably, they will come up with, hypothetically, I'm just guessing, wouldn't shock me, President Trump, Putin, mad scientists of Russia and Ukraine are manufacturing the coronavirus on purpose so they can hurt innocent children and kill grandma and grandpa, before they throw them over a cliff, before they feed them dog food.

Look, it is time, in all seriousness, for simple, fundamental truths to protect our fellow Americans. That means Democrats. That means Republicans, liberals, conservatives and libertarians and everybody in between. Viruses do not have a political identity.

So, tonight, we will separate cold hard truth from what is the mob's latest, manufactured, irresponsible, over-the-top rhetoric. Our medical A- team and Dr. Oz tonight will explain.

Again, you keep repeating lies, and somehow believe the other side is the one lying to you.  How many times does this have to be demonstrated before it makes an impact?

rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #480 on: April 22, 2020, 09:29:41 AM »
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Again, you keep repeating lies, and somehow believe the other side is the one lying to you.  How many times does this have to be demonstrated before it makes an impact?

It seems we are all being gas-lit. The point may be correct however the 'other side', with the same sense of correctness, authentically believe your the one repeating lies.
We have come to the point where the point is moot. The other does not believe the other is speaking in good faith. Such is the danger when leaders character no longer matter and media outlets become propaganda outlets. Their are no winners here. 

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #481 on: April 22, 2020, 09:30:31 AM »
The hoax is that the media was or is scaring people unnecessarily. It is very necessary to scare the living crap out of people with the absolute worst case scenario, because people don't take it seriously if you say, "It might be terrible or it might not be that bad." A large number of people will gravitate to the best case scenario. Why else do they get suckered into pyramid schemes and online gambling? This isn't something we can gamble on. The incubation lag is enough to get on an exponential increase that can barely be contained by the time you start identifying cases.

It's not like conservative media doesn't also present their worst case scenarios - like background checks leading to a police state.

rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #482 on: April 22, 2020, 10:44:21 AM »
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the media was or is scaring people unnecessarily.

since new media has moved from a public trust to a business to make profit the hyperbole to catch the public eye is explained away
The solution would be to return to news reporting as a public trust any profit to be returned to the public  (not going to happen)
Or educate the viewer in discernment to see past the hyperbole and or not reward news outlets that betray public trust. Hold the outlets accountable financially for getting it wrong.

 

Seriati

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #483 on: April 22, 2020, 10:49:55 AM »
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Again, you keep repeating lies, and somehow believe the other side is the one lying to you.  How many times does this have to be demonstrated before it makes an impact?

It seems we are all being gas-lit. The point may be correct however the 'other side', with the same sense of correctness, authentically believe your the one repeating lies.

I don't care what they believe, I care what they demonstrate.  It's observable fact that the left media spins every single issue to be "Trump did wrong."  It's racist to have a travel ban, it should be reported to the international criminal court that Trump didn't act sooner.

Or how about this lie reported by the media?  Trump knew about this in November (before the Chinese) based on secret intelligence agency report and the Whitehouse briefing.  Our "secret" source saw the report.  Report does not of course exist, nor is there any record of this briefing - even though there are records of all such briefings.

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We have come to the point where the point is moot. The other does not believe the other is speaking in good faith. Such is the danger when leaders character no longer matter and media outlets become propaganda outlets. Their are no winners here.

I disagree.  Your response to me demonstrating that the left is spreading a deliberate and knowing lie for political convenience is to claim we all do it?

Them demonstrate it, and not just because you "believe" something someone on Fox said is wrong or that something someone on the left said has been misreported.  Show me that it's unfair to claim Schiff is a liar for repeatedly claiming their was evidence - not in the public record but that he'd seen - that Trump colluded with the Russians.  The evidence is out, that was a lie.  Show us where the left media treated Kavanaugh and Biden in the same manner.

Claiming we all do it is a lie.

Seriati

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #484 on: April 22, 2020, 11:01:29 AM »
The hoax is that the media was or is scaring people unnecessarily. It is very necessary to scare the living crap out of people with the absolute worst case scenario, because people don't take it seriously if you say, "It might be terrible or it might not be that bad." A large number of people will gravitate to the best case scenario. Why else do they get suckered into pyramid schemes and online gambling? This isn't something we can gamble on. The incubation lag is enough to get on an exponential increase that can barely be contained by the time you start identifying cases.

TheDrake that is a completely reasonable argument.  You made it.  The left media could have made the argument that Hannity was wrong.

Instead, they make the argument that Hannity called the virus a hoax, which they know is a lie.  And if people not only don't have a problem with that but spread it they are spreading lies.

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It's not like conservative media doesn't also present their worst case scenarios - like background checks leading to a police state.

Again, it's a fair argument.  It's also a projection.  The equivalent to the media lie campaign would be if Fox pulled a clip of Rachel Maddow agreeing with that as follows.  Taking a clip that originally said, "There is no way that background checks lead to a police state." and playing only the bold part.

The difference is that Fox does not have any where near the MSM echo impact.  If Fox reveals a lie, dozens, even hundreds of Left media sources pretend the lie is still true, but if Fox did that to Maddow there'd be a thousand stories at the top of the search results showing it the next day.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #485 on: April 22, 2020, 11:03:13 AM »
BTW, out of context reporting of quotes is a staple of the right wing media, or have you not heard of Project Veritas and Obama's "you didn't build that"?

Seriati

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #486 on: April 22, 2020, 11:07:59 AM »
Or how about this one.  The New York Times, literally attributing a death to Fox News and including a quote in its story from the March 9 Fox show for a decision made on March 1st, and ignoring their own and all potential impacts from the left.

https://nypost.com/2020/04/20/no-ny-times-fox-news-didnt-kill-joe-joyce/


Seriati

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #487 on: April 22, 2020, 11:23:20 AM »
BTW, out of context reporting of quotes is a staple of the right wing media, or have you not heard of Project Veritas and Obama's "you didn't build that"?

In what way was "you didn't build that" unfairly used out of context?  Here's the speech passage:

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There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me — because they want to give something back. They know they didn’t — look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something — there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.

If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don’t do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

So we say to ourselves, ever since the founding of this country, you know what, there are some things we do better together. That’s how we funded the GI Bill. That’s how we created the middle class. That’s how we built the Golden Gate Bridge or the Hoover Dam. That’s how we invented the Internet. That’s how we sent a man to the moon. We rise or fall together as one nation and as one people, and that’s the reason I’m running for President — because I still believe in that idea. You’re not on your own, we’re in this together.

He was agruing that we need higher taxes and he literally was telling those that build businesses that they owe that success to the group, not to their own hard work.  He conflates any hard work (as if working 70 hours a week digging a ditch - which I have done) is exactly the same thing as doing the same and throwing all you money into your own start up business - it's not.  He's literally putting the nicest polish on a nasty idea that its "right" to take from the haves to give to everyone else.

In no way is that clip misrepresenting the whole.  Yet there are literally multiple fact checks - at the very top of the search results followed by massive amounts of left spin pieces.  I followed through to the fact checks and they tried their best to imply it was misused (for context I looked at politifact on Trump's "fine people" quote which has been deliberately used to misrepresent his speech.  There they have no clear statement that it's misused, don't mention the left spin (in contrast most the Obama article is criticsm of specific campaign commercials that used the quote - but not describing why it was unfair), instead they have page after page of the transcript, without any commentary.

In other words, they focused on spin in favor of Obama and bury the lede on Trump without making a clear statement it was false.

You are free to take your own look and tell me if you find a different result.

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BTW, out of context reporting of quotes is a staple of the right wing media, or have you not heard of Project Veritas and Obama's "you didn't build that"?

So prove it about mainstream right media.  There's literally only a couple of such sources, cause we all know you're not looking to hold the Progressive extreme news sources to the same standard by implying they are part of the left media.

Project Veritas intrigues me.  They seem no less fair than a 60 minutes undercover report expose, yet they seem to cause some kind of trigger warning issue.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #488 on: April 22, 2020, 11:40:37 AM »
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not to their own hard work
That isn't at all what Obama said.  You just quoted the complete passage, yet you still misrepresent what he stated.  This is a perfect example of what TheDrake was alluding to.

Seriati

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #489 on: April 22, 2020, 01:15:43 PM »
Wow, I think the "adjustment" to make what I said 100% accurate instead of 95% accurate would be as follows:

"he literally was telling those that build businesses that they owe that success to the group, not just to their own hard work"

Though that actually gives him too much credit and is about the same amount "false" in his favor as what I originally said, since he literally said that "I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something — there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there."  And that certainly implies that my original comment is more correct, since he down plays hard work by ignoring the distinctions between what kinds of hard work can generate big success and what kinds can't, he ignores completely the personal risk involved because he want to attribute it to the group or some form of luck or chance (which is a dog whistle on the left).  Of course I did address that as well.

But I've now walked through this twice and all you've done is asserted your own opinion that I misrepresented him.  Show your work.  Show exactly what was a misrepresentation, using context to prove your claims.

The two examples I discussed were a both directly contradicted by the context.  Show that work.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #490 on: April 22, 2020, 01:37:23 PM »
Whether somebody took more risk than someone else doesn't bear on "who built that". If it were, then workers risking their health and their lives would be able to lay more claim to "who build that' than the guy who funded the project.

There is a lot of luck and chance in success, though it isn't the total reason in most cases. You were fortunate in the first place to be born where you are, when you are, and who your peers are. Its refuting this idea that just anybody in any circumstance can just be successful through pure will.

Was Zuckerberg that much more brilliant and hard working than everyone else? Or did he just happen to have access to a private academy, Harvard, and a supportive family? Obama wasn't trying to take away those kinds of achievements, just to put them in perspective that its not just personal choices and ability that are factors.

They absolutely owe their success to something other than their hard work, though the hard work is a necessary component that should be admired.

yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #491 on: April 22, 2020, 01:56:44 PM »
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If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

Its ambiguous grammar but watching live it was clear to me the "that" referred to the American system and infrastructure. Not their own business. But free country, if you chose to interpret the that as the person's business there is enough ambiguity in the phrasing and structure of the sentence you can make an argument. But by following up with the government helped create the internet infrastructure and then companies made money off it makes more sense if "that" means infrastructure and american system instead of business.

fizz

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #492 on: April 22, 2020, 02:32:17 PM »
Small personal example to reinforce what Obama said, things that by the way I share 100%.
I'm a moderately successful businessman in IT. While very very very far from being a billionaire, I founded an healthy company that feed about 50 employees and whose services are used by slightly more than a million users.
I did this without having a wealthy family or investors of any kind, all bootstrapped from scratch, and I for sure worked a lot for this: there were periods when I was pulling 80 hours working weeks for months at a time, even if now I'm a bit too old to pull that kinds of time, it's a rare week that i do only 40 hours, and until very recently I never knew the meaning of the word vacation.

But I still was able to do this only thanks to having a fully working society around me.

As a kid, I learned stuff by going to a state-paid public school.

At university, I was able to study without contracting any debt even if we were not rich because our universities are state-funded.
And I met my business partner at university. I met there also other people that funded IT and non-IT companies that were among our first customers, first suppliers, and partners in this or that venture. My university was not a very prestigious one, it was a small local one because I could not afford to move to a bigger city, so most of those people were small-time like me: of course, if I had been to a prestigious university, the kind of friends I would have made would have been different, and the business opportunities different too... that's after all the true premium of those ivy league unis, right?

I had all my life completely free healthcare: when I started my company, my family was on the brink of financial ruin due to some mistakes of my father... me and my family would not have been able to afford an health insurance, so I would have had the choice to either renounce starting the company, or risk it without... and if I had done that, when in those years I had to undergo emergency surgery, I would have either died, because I would have waited too much to go to the hospital for fear of the cost, or I would have been financially ruined.
Likely my mother too would have died in those years as she too needed some surgery.
In the period when we opened a branch of my company abroad, for a couple of years I lived in a country that uses an hybrid healthcare system: you're only covered if your employer or family pay for healthcare, even if the price is state-mandated. I still remember the anxiety I suddenly felt when I realized this, when I injured a foot before I had time to organize the company properly and give myself a formal paycheck and the related insurance.. for the first time I realized how privileged I had always been for my healthcare system.

Even in my work, everything I've built depends anyway on the work of many many people out there: in our software the use of open source software and platforms and products is massive: if we had to develop everything from scratch, we would not have gone anywhere.
Even if we had used only commercial tools, all algorithms, all the theory behind what we do, comes out of academic studies and research.
Like Newton said, "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants.", all our science and technology and art and culture is based on derivative and cumulative work across the ages.

And anyway, all my 50 employees are trained and instructed and cared for by that same society, and I need them because there is no way I could do everything that's needed to run my company alone. Some of them are quite smarter than me, in many different ways, and have different strengths and competences that I need to make everything works.

I've been lucky to develop over the course of my early life a set of skills, interests and desires that led me down this road, and I've been lucky that events turned on right a sufficient amount of time. Sure, I had some talents and will, but if some things turned the wrong way, like they did for my father, I would have failed. There is still time for that, by the way... you never know what's going to happen. If thats going to happen, I'll be glad to know that I've a societal network that should guarantee to me that at least I will not have to worry for my health, or for those of my relatives.

So, even if when the time to pay taxes arrive the thing it's always a bit painful, still I'm glad to do it, because I live in a society, I'm not Robinson Crusoe on a desert island.

(I could also mention some of those infrastructure things like road to drive to work and to customers, a national power grid, water and sanitation, the postal system, the phone lines, internet, a judiciary system, health and quality standards that make sure food and consumer products are healthy and safe, and all those thousands of little details that make a working nation, but one would hope there would be no need for that...)

« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 02:36:42 PM by fizz »

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #493 on: April 22, 2020, 02:34:36 PM »
You might be the smartest, hardest working and smartest working man in the world, Jeff Bezos, but without seed money, the roads network, banking systems, and the internet, Amazon doesn't exist

Seriati

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #494 on: April 22, 2020, 04:00:18 PM »
I see, so yoss it was clear to you real time that the reference was to not having built the infrastructure itself, though it seems  the other 3 that responded took it to mean that the person involved owed their success at business to something other than themselves.  Hardly seems like a clear case of misrepresentation then of what Obama said.

And fizz thanks for sharing that.  You made the cogent argument about the substance that underlies what Obama was arguing - though that's only one interpretation of the facts.  But the disscusion is about whether what he said was misrepresented. 

The problem here is that it's not an all or nothing proposition.  Obama's argument props up all or nothing thinking, that no one is SOLELY responsible for thier success therefore, they owe EVERYTHING back to society.  That's false as the proposition that someone's success is 100% their own and that they owe nothing to anyone else.  Obama's words imply (and have been used by the left) to pretend that any societal contribution to success is more important than the individual contribution.  So tell us Fizz, was it just your luck that had you running the company, did you take that chance from every empoyee you ever had and any one of themwould have been just a s capable and willing to do what you did, but for the fact that you received better sociatal support than every one of them?   Are you arguing that you weren't important to that success?  Did society benefit at all from your efforts that resulted in employeing 50 people and presumably providing services to hundreds more?  Was it not in societies self interest to make those investments in infrastructure that directly was repoid by you and hundresds of others that provide that society with jobs, services and products?

This debate does not answer whether taxes should be 95% of income - I assume fiz you think that would be too much - or whether you should be required to add 50 employees to your payrole without useful skills because they are entitled to a job; or whether they should be 5% and even basic infrastructure should be comercialzed.  Obligations are only what are agreed, despte Obama' implication that we all owe everything we have to the group.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #495 on: April 22, 2020, 04:11:47 PM »
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Obama's argument props up all or nothing thinking, that no one is SOLELY responsible for thier success therefore, they owe EVERYTHING back to society
You really can't help yourself, can you? :D

You cannot admit that businesses thrive today because, well, society exists, because you think that means somebody, somewhere, will make the argument that those businesses should therefore be owned collectively, i.e., they owe EVERYTHING back to society.  This is the same type of reasoning that doesn't allow people to accept that human activities have led to the increases in atmospheric CO2 that are currently warming the planet, because that means that somebody, somewhere, will argue that all industry must be therefore shut down.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #496 on: April 22, 2020, 04:13:44 PM »
I don't know how you can possibly get "everything" out of his statements.

He said you didn't get there on your own, not that you got there by accident or that you owe the entirety of your success to the efforts of other people. If you boiled that down, it would come out something like "you owe a significant amount to others for your success."

rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #497 on: April 22, 2020, 04:29:07 PM »
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Again, you keep repeating lies, and somehow believe the other side is the one lying to you.  How many times does this have to be demonstrated before it makes an impact?

It seems we are all being gas-lit. The point may be correct however the 'other side', with the same sense of correctness, authentically believe your the one repeating lies.

I don't care what they believe, I care what they demonstrate.  It's observable fact that the left media spins every single issue to be "Trump did wrong."  It's racist to have a travel ban, it should be reported to the international criminal court that Trump didn't act sooner.

Or how about this lie reported by the media?  Trump knew about this in November (before the Chinese) based on secret intelligence agency report and the Whitehouse briefing.  Our "secret" source saw the report.  Report does not of course exist, nor is there any record of this briefing - even though there are records of all such briefings.

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We have come to the point where the point is moot. The other does not believe the other is speaking in good faith. Such is the danger when leaders character no longer matter and media outlets become propaganda outlets. Their are no winners here.

I disagree.  Your response to me demonstrating that the left is spreading a deliberate and knowing lie for political convenience is to claim we all do it?

Them demonstrate it, and not just because you "believe" something someone on Fox said is wrong or that something someone on the left said has been misreported.  Show me that it's unfair to claim Schiff is a liar for repeatedly claiming their was evidence - not in the public record but that he'd seen - that Trump colluded with the Russians.  The evidence is out, that was a lie.  Show us where the left media treated Kavanaugh and Biden in the same manner.

Claiming we all do it is a lie.

"I don't care what they believe, I care what they demonstrate."  Likewise they don't care what you believe only what you can demonstrate and 'they' don't agree with what your demonstrating just as you don't agree with what they are demonstrating. Only you know with certainty that your right. You have demonstrated no more willingness to give the benefit of the doubt then those you argue with.

All the arguments you countered my statesmen with can an are made by those you disagree with - replacing the word left with the word right

"Show me that it's unfair to claim Schiff is a liar for repeatedly claiming their was evidence" Without being able to read his mind I don't know, however the evidence I saw points to their having been evidence - if that should have been impeachable - I don't know.

Show me its unfair to Claim the Trump is a liar repeatedly making claims that are not true and without evidence. And don't give me the because there is a sliver of truth in a statement that makes the statement if not true, true not a lie.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 04:31:35 PM by rightleft22 »

fizz

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #498 on: April 22, 2020, 06:45:04 PM »
...
 Obama's argument props up all or nothing thinking, that no one is SOLELY responsible for thier success therefore, they owe EVERYTHING back to society. 
...

You read that, I don't.

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So tell us Fizz, was it just your luck that had you running the company, did you take that chance from every empoyee you ever had and any one of themwould have been just a s capable and willing to do what you did, but for the fact that you received better sociatal support than every one of them?   Are you arguing that you weren't important to that success?  Did society benefit at all from your efforts that resulted in employeing 50 people and presumably providing services to hundreds more?  Was it not in societies self interest to make those investments in infrastructure that directly was repoid by you and hundresds of others that provide that society with jobs, services and products?

In order:
1. of course it was not *just* the day-to-day luck that hallowed me to accomplish that, although it helped, but it was all luck that had me be a white (well, let's say native in the dominant ethnicity) heterosexual male, with an interest and skill in a field (I.T.) right at the moment when it was booming. My brother for example is a very skilled swordsman, but apart for giving him satisfactions in sports, this skill is quite hard to monetize, and is not helping him at all at finding a decent job that he likes.
But in other ages his skill could have been the more important one.
2. no, I'm arguing that, like Obama said in the very same quote you used, "we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together", and "If (I was) successful, somebody along the line gave (me) some help", and believe me, plenty of people, even people I've never met and don't ever know I exists, had to help me getting were I got.
3. I like to think so
4. well, of course. This is exactly the argument behind an expansion of social services. You help people not only because it's the moral thing to do (and it is), but also because all in all it's in the best interest of society keeping an happy, healthy, educated and satisfied population. It's win-win. But if I then, after getting my benefits, did not pay taxes and "give back", society could not afford to do those things that were needed to bring me here in the first place and contribute these benefits to the society.

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This debate does not answer whether taxes should be 95% of income - I assume fiz you think that would be too much - or whether you should be required to add 50 employees to your payrole without useful skills because they are entitled to a job; or whether they should be 5% and even basic infrastructure should be comercialzed.

First of all, I didn't see in your quote anything talking about a flat 95% rate, or taking a 100% extra 'social hires'. If such a thing was proposed in the terms you wrote, it would be of course stupid, but before I believed somebody proposed such a thing, you should show me the proposal, it's not enough for you to infer this based on your intuition on the implications. It would be quite more the already quite higher taxes and social obligations we have in my country, that would make the average US businessman run away screaming (for example, with 50 employees we *do* have a mandatory social hire, one, and we simply  found jobs that the disabled woman could do <shrug>. And we do have an union inside, even if only a couple employee felt the need to go with them, as we are quite fair in our dealings, and a lot of small other things).

(I will not go in the argument about progressive taxation rates, how they work, the history of taxation rates in the US and abroad and the effect of lack of they had on economy over time because that's a vast off-topic).



wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #499 on: April 22, 2020, 08:12:04 PM »
..."we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together", and "If (I was) successful, somebody along the line gave (me) some help"

Obama was using a focus-group tested cliché to impugn successful professionals. He took the edge off the cliché by saying we are all part of the society that has created the shoulders to stand upon, but his subsequent speeches, as well as the complicit media take on his words make entrepreneurs and successful people a target. Why else even mention it?

As for "everybody does it," that was the Clinton-era defense against his bimbo eruption. Instead of offering remorse, he tried to drag the Founders, and all other Presidents into the mud with him to share his depravity.

I agree with Seriati that the Left passes on lies without vetting them, but I may blame them less than he does. They hold their disinformational beliefs honestly. They believe the lies, not because they are evil, but because that is how they were taught, and how the disinformation was reinforced. It takes courage and healthy logic to examine what one thinks is true data. For most of us, such actions occur piecemeal. One thing commonly believed becomes surprisingly provably incorrect, which causes us to look at other similar things. The more didinfprmation we uncover, the less we are inclined to wear blinders.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 08:15:16 PM by wmLambert »