Author Topic: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:  (Read 98588 times)

Seriati

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #550 on: April 24, 2020, 05:29:33 PM »
You mean rightleft22 like how Trump repeatedly directed his questions about bring the light into the body to the doctors?  Or how he said things like wouldn't it be nice?  Or how it was absolutely 100% clear he was speculating and asking the doctors whether they could find a way to use these techniques that work on surfaces to attack the virus in the body?

Or did you only read the one little snippet?  Honestly, it can be painful to listen to everything Trump says.  But no one rationale listens to him and believes that every word is somehow literal.

rightleft22

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #551 on: April 24, 2020, 05:37:30 PM »
You mean rightleft22 like how Trump repeatedly directed his questions about bring the light into the body to the doctors?  Or how he said things like wouldn't it be nice?  Or how it was absolutely 100% clear he was speculating and asking the doctors whether they could find a way to use these techniques that work on surfaces to attack the virus in the body?

Or did you only read the one little snippet?  Honestly, it can be painful to listen to everything Trump says.  But no one rationale listens to him and believes that every word is somehow literal.

I agree it can be painful to listen to everything trump says. The problem is that rational people wanting to understand Trump are stuck because some things he says are literal and some are not (most are not traditionally presidential) and telling the difference is difficult and to often a distraction to real issues. His method of comunication always leave a window open to misinterpretation. (My view is that that is intentional as well as a attribute of a poor leader and communicator)

You still have not addressed the real issue here: Should a President be pondering/rambling/spit balling during a briefing to the people? Is that good leadership? Is it helpful
And 2 + hours everyday. Everyday! WTF
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 05:43:19 PM by rightleft22 »

rightleft22

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #552 on: April 24, 2020, 05:48:48 PM »
I'll be off line for the weekend.
Everyone have a good one

DonaldD

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #553 on: April 24, 2020, 05:58:38 PM »
oops!  Sorry, I guess I was wrong - Trump wasn't serious with his question about injecting disinfectant as a means of curing/treating COVID-19. From The Washington Post:
Quote
The question, which Trump offered unprompted, immediately spurred doctors, lawmakers and the makers of Lysol to respond with incredulity and warnings against injecting or otherwise ingesting disinfectants, which are highly toxic.
When asked Friday during a bill signing in the Oval Office to expand upon this, Trump said it was not intended as a serious suggestion.
“I was asking a question sarcastically to reporters like you just to see what would happen,” Trump said.
So...  he said the question was just as a trap for reporters, which is a much, much a better thing to do while putatively providing information and leadership to the country concerning an epidemic killing tens of thousands of people in the country than thinking that injecting rubbing alcohol into people might cure them of a disease...

wmLambert

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #554 on: April 24, 2020, 06:15:12 PM »
Quote
The original point being, as you just inadvertently confirmed, is that Trump was pondering, publicly, that injecting disinfectants might be a good treatment for COVID-19

I watched the clip where he was 'spit balling' 'brainstorming' this idea.

He didn't specifically tell people to inject themselves with bleach so that point is moot however the real issue, IMO, is that this type of pondering is dangerous coming from a Presidential platform.  We can get cough up in the argument of what he really said or didn't say, but I see that as a distraction from the real issues which I suspect is the intent

Much of Trumps political power comes from not being able to pin him down on what he actually means when he says something. He is a master.  It's so distracting that we can't see the baby in the bathwater, we forget about the baby all together.

I wish I had you in a classroom studying group problem solving. You have an erroneous understanding of how such things are done.

To facilitate creative group problem solving, the best leaders set aside a "no negatives" period when everyone throws out ideas, wild or not, and let them gestate. After all these ideas are out in the mix, the group can go back and tear them apart, trying to vet what may be workable and advisable, and what is not. In this manner, the ideas become a product of the group, and not "owned by the original contributor, who clings to an idea out of personal investment, rather than the content of the ideas, themselves." After the ideas are whittled down, another round of positive-only refinements are applied, then the vetting, again. This process is the smartest and most endorsed process for solving such problems. Trump does this routinely, but the media, and those who then endorse their pejorative inputs are the true stupid people.

Creative group problem solving is much harder than just "brainstorming." Doing it correctly creates solutions to problems much faster and effectively than any other method. A person can lead this kind of discussion without alluding to some formal sort of "Robert's Rules of Order." Trump is good at getting the best out of others, and then using their contributions as a group product, and not claiming personal ownership, himself, of the group product.

Trump is good at getting groups to work together and find solutions to things that others just pay lip service to, and never come up with anything positive. He is also good at selecting good group members who can contribute in the arena under discussion. I think this is one reason he is so disdainful of Fake News reporters who are only negative and never positive. Instead of covering the news, they are purposefully blocking the process of solving problems. I don't know if Trump is aware of the formal training of this process, but he certainly uses it and has used it over his whole career. His autobiographies, wherein he describes his methods and problem solving defines how he operates, and how he judges the efficacy of the ideas that he foments.

Quote
When ad hominems [[sic] and] are literally the only thing you offer, and that's the literal truth as I've never seen you do anything else, who's being reasonable and who's not?

Problem solving a la Trump is not "ad Hominem." That is more strawman mis-interpretation of how he operates. One assigns ideas to an opposing viewpoint only if one wants to discredit the proposer, not the idea, itself. If an idea is valid, who offers it is not an issue.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 06:18:22 PM by wmLambert »

DonaldD

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #555 on: April 24, 2020, 06:47:28 PM »
You're absolutely adorable!

cherrypoptart

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #556 on: April 24, 2020, 06:54:45 PM »
I had thought something along the lines of Trump, some kind of way to get cleansing agents into the body to kill the virus. I don't know if it would work or not but we have the ancient example of workers at copper smelters being mostly immune from passing plagues. Was it because they were touching the copper all the time and that was like constantly washing their hands? Or was it because copper atoms were in the air being breathed in and got in their food as well?

Now as with most things beneficial there is certainly harm that could come from copper in this way too. But I wonder what would happen if you took some dire case coronavirus sufferers to a copper smelter. Would it help them any? Would the workers get infected or would the copper kill the virus before it could get to them? If it did work would there be a way to aerosolize atoms of copper? Are there safe levels for it?

Maybe it would do nothing at all. Maybe they'd get copper poisoning. I have no idea but I can appreciate the lines along which Trump was thinking. It's good to think out of the box sometimes like wmLambert is saying. Most of the time it's rubbish but sometimes even the rubbish can lead to a spark of inspiration that results in progress.

Wayward Son

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #557 on: April 24, 2020, 07:24:22 PM »
I liked this breakdown of Trump's latest comments:

"Trump did what he always does: he played a single-person game of telephone, in which somebody gave him information, he processed it, and it came out of his mouth in a completely different (and bizarre) way. That doesn't mean he was recommending actually injecting Clorox, people.

This is half the crazy stuff that exits his face: somebody said something mostly-reasonable, he interpreted in a bumper sticker fashion removed from the substance..."

This demonstrates what is wrong with Republicans and the Republican Party these days.

Seriati quotes a guy who basically states that President Donald Trump cannot properly process information, and comes out with "crazy stuff" after hearing something.  That Trump really, truly does not understand what he heard and the implications of it.  And Seriati is fine with that.  He (and the person he quoted) blames the media for making a big deal out of the fact that the President of the United States doesn't understand the substance of what he heard.

If Obama had said anything similar, Republicans would have been slavering at the mouth in outrage.

But you guys have become so corrupted, so inured to the outrageousness of this man, that you don't even realize how utterly incompetent he is.  You don't even realize when you admit it.  You blame everyone else--the media, Liberals, TDS, Never-Trumpers--and not the man who is actually responsible for the BS that comes out of Donald's mouth.  You would rather pretend that someone else is to blame.

This entire thread was started so you could confront, unspun and uninterpreted, the actual words of Donald Trump himself, and see how often they are incorrect, illogical, untrue, and out-and-out lies.  But you don't look at those words, do you?  You always look somewhere else, at someone else, to either explain away the words, or blame someone else for him looking bad.

This is what the party of Personal Responsibility has become.  A party looking for anyone else to blame.

This is what the party of Reason and Logic has become.  A party that ignores what is plain and obvious to even the most casual observer.

This is what the Grand Old Party has become.  Trump's apologists.

I don't expect you guys to hear what I'm saying.  You don't have the ears for it anymore.  You are holding on so tightly to Trump that you refuse to even consider that he is a terrible President, a terrible leader, and a terrible person who never should have gotten this job in the first place.  You have become so blinded by partisanship that you can't see reality anymore.

But just do one thing, if you can.  Do this one thing every time Trump says something.

Just image how you would feel if Barak Obama has said precisely the same thing.

And consider why that might feel a bit different than what you feel about Trump.

cherrypoptart

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #558 on: April 24, 2020, 07:58:45 PM »
But I thought intentions were what counted...

Trump's intentions here are good. They aren't even racist. Black people are suffering the most. If there was some way to get a treatment that people could just inhale that would be perfect. He's not talking about people actually using bleach. Just something like it. Sure it may come to nothing and may not be possible with today's technology but there is nothing wrong with brainstorming. He's just saying what he's thinking. Wishful thinking here to be sure but that's not a crime. It doesn't mean he's incompetent. It's just more like science fiction at this point, where like in The Last Ship they invented a cure that could be spread person to person like the virus itself.

Bringing Obama into it, it wasn't that we didn't think he was competent. It wasn't that he didn't know exactly what he was doing. It was that he was and he did. He was competent and he knew exactly what he was doing. It was just the wrong thing. Obamacare. DACA. NASA. Churches not being able to select their own clergy. The NLRB recess appointment the Supreme Court overruled him on 9-0. I mean you look at how many unanimous Supreme Court rulings you had against Obama and compare that to Trump's record in the Supreme Court where not only is he not getting overruled unanimously but as far as I can see in the headlines most rulings are going in his favor.

Now that's not to say that I find Trump's coronavirus response competent. I don't. He and the CDC really dropped the ball on this at just about every turn. There are valid criticisms there. But this extemporaneous talking that he has a habit of doing isn't a problem. If it reveals that he doesn't understand things then maybe that's a good thing. If he just kept quiet and nodded and no one ever knew wouldn't that be worse?

Just looked up the tidbit about unanimous Supreme Court decisions against Obama to make sure I was right and  found that sure enough I was with even Justice Elena Kagan decrying Obama's chutzpah.

https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/political_commentary/commentary_by_michael_barone/supreme_court_slaps_down_the_obama_administration

LetterRip

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #559 on: April 24, 2020, 08:39:26 PM »
Now he is claiming it was sarcasm.

Aris Katsaris

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #560 on: April 24, 2020, 08:40:19 PM »
But I thought intentions were what counted...

Trump's intentions here are good. They aren't even racist. Black people are suffering the most. If there was some way to get a treatment that people could just inhale that would be perfect. He's not talking about people actually using bleach. Just something like it. Sure it may come to nothing and may not be possible with today's technology but there is nothing wrong with brainstorming. He's just saying what he's thinking. Wishful thinking here to be sure but that's not a crime. It doesn't mean he's incompetent.

Isn't he now claiming that he was being sarcastic with his suggestion?

wmLambert

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #561 on: April 24, 2020, 08:49:22 PM »
...you guys have become so corrupted, so inured to the outrageousness of this man, that you don't even realize how utterly incompetent he is.  You don't even realize when you admit it.  You blame everyone else--the media, Liberals, TDS, Never-Trumpers--and not the man who is actually responsible for the BS that comes out of Donald's mouth.  You would rather pretend that someone else is to blame.

No, you are projecting the never-ending attacks on Trump into a conspiracy to confront disinformation when the attacks are disproved. Trump is not racist, yet the Never-Trumpers start with that as a given. It is a lie, yet it is accepted as truth. Those with this anti-Trump mindset really need to stop the straw-man attacks. There is enough cleaning to do in their own stables to keep them busy addressing what they can fix. He is also not incompetent or prone to spewing BS. However; those who claim he is responsible for the pejorative paraphrasing and media disinformation that is pushed out to the public in his name should apologize.

If one compares the ceaseless attacks on Trump with Schiff (for example) the evidence is clear who is being one-sided. Look at Biden and his latest bimbo eruption. Zero coverage in the MSM. Maybe Michael Avenatti should explain how this is possible.

Aris Katsaris

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #562 on: April 24, 2020, 09:39:10 PM »
Quote
Trump is not racist, yet the Never-Trumpers start with that as a given. It is a lie, yet it is accepted as truth.

Even if you think the accusation false, it's not a "lie". People accusing Trump of being a racist generally do indeed believe him a racist.

Seriati

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #563 on: April 24, 2020, 09:55:35 PM »
Seriati quotes a guy who basically states that President Donald Trump cannot properly process information, and comes out with "crazy stuff" after hearing something.  That Trump really, truly does not understand what he heard and the implications of it.  And Seriati is fine with that.  He (and the person he quoted) blames the media for making a big deal out of the fact that the President of the United States doesn't understand the substance of what he heard.

ScottF and I are not the same person.

My argument on Trump has an echo of the argument I made on Bush and on the way I've described various friends who are prolific story tellers over the years.  With Trump any one that listens to him can tell he rambles, but any person of normal intellect that listens to him can also tell what he means.  There's zero question that anyone of average intellect that listen's to an entire 2 hour press event where he takes more than an hour of questions understands exactly what he thinks the answers are. Yet, supposedly smart media figures not only get the wrong answer, they conspire with each other to make sure the wrong answer is broadly distributed to a whole heck of a lot of people, free from contradictions, that will not themselves listen to the whole press conference.

So let's take a straw  poll, did you listen to the press conference?  And if so, did you believe that Trump recommended that you inject yourself with cleaning products.

I honestly don't believe there's anyone for whom the first answer is yes, and the second answer is also yes, who has a functional IQ.  So why did the media try to convince you - successfully I might add - that this is what occurred?

What does it say about your own critical reasoning if you believe that is exactly what Trump said?  What does it say that you continue to rely on media reports that you must know for a fact are either misrepresenting what was obviously meant, or written by people with below functional IQs?

Quote
If Obama had said anything similar, Republicans would have been slavering at the mouth in outrage.

Well, Obama's a different kind of speaker.  He didn't say nearly as much off the cuff.  My criticisms of Obama was not that he mispoke, but rather that he used his gifts to convince people of false concepts, or even outright lied.

Quote
But you guys have become so corrupted, so inured to the outrageousness of this man, that you don't even realize how utterly incompetent he is.  You don't even realize when you admit it.  You blame everyone else--the media, Liberals, TDS, Never-Trumpers--and not the man who is actually responsible for the BS that comes out of Donald's mouth.  You would rather pretend that someone else is to blame.

Or, like I said, as a person of reasonable intellect and experience with more talking with more than one other person in life, I'm just aware that when Trump speaks he's speaking in a direction, with an intent to get the idea across but not weighing every word or phrase for the exact meaning. 

It's really not that outrageous, and it's not nearly as outrageous as using any phrase you can find out of context to create a strawman argument about what he actually meant or intends.

It is TDS, you don't hold anyone else to the same standard.  Shciff for example has lied over and over and not only do you not care, you approve.

Quote
This entire thread was started so you could confront, unspun and uninterpreted, the actual words of Donald Trump himself, and see how often they are incorrect, illogical, untrue, and out-and-out lies.  But you don't look at those words, do you?  You always look somewhere else, at someone else, to either explain away the words, or blame someone else for him looking bad.

No, I look at why we get Trump's words unfiltered so often.  It's literally because there's no other way.  If the media were just honest and actually fairly reported his positions and didn't try to misrepresent him for damage at every turn, we woulnd't need to hear from him so often.

What has been the most interesting thing about the COVID updates, is the number of people who are not political who've been watching them and telling me they had no idea how far the media was going to try and create false stories.  The media's problem is that unless they get to use clips out of context people get to hear the actual position rather than the lie about the position they want you to hear.

Really, take a pick, do you want the media to accurately relay his positions?  Or are you really defending cherry picking individual statements to create false versions of this position?

It's really that simply.  From your repeated outrage, and projection onto me and others, it's clear you want the lies.

Quote
This is what the party of Personal Responsibility has become.  A party looking for anyone else to blame.

I want to hold the media responsible for their personal decisions to create false stories and misrepresentations for what they perceive to be "the good" of the country (which is literally just DNC partisan advantage) rather than doing their job.  For me, with Trump actions speak louder than the words he uses to describe them.

Quote
This is what the party of Reason and Logic has become.  A party that ignores what is plain and obvious to even the most casual observer.

I find that when people call things "plain and obvious" or "clear" what they really mean is that they believe them strongly on an unexamined and unexaminable basis. 
Quote
I don't expect you guys to hear what I'm saying.  You don't have the ears for it anymore.  You are holding on so tightly to Trump that you refuse to even consider that he is a terrible President, a terrible leader, and a terrible person who never should have gotten this job in the first place.  You have become so blinded by partisanship that you can't see reality anymore.

See that's nonsense, I have considered it, and we both know that you have NEVER considered the inverse.   You've never considered that he's actually a pretty good President that's challenged alot of policies that were flawed (with fair success, but not a perfect record of always identifying a flawed policy), that he's been an effective President and exactly what we've needed at various stages of his term - he's great at removing regulatory overreach, at job creation and even on the economy in general and he's exactly the President we needed for the COVID 19 crisis to break the administrative state roadblocks. 

He's fine leader, but he's never going to be accepted by the Democrats as a leader.  Their reaction (and yours) is unthinking.

As far as being a terrible person, opinions can vary, but I don't recall anyone making such claims on a basis where they almost can breath over the years, and he's been a very public figure for more than 40 years.  I mean is it the adultry?  You don't seem to hate Clinton and he's adulterer (and credible rape claims against him were buried).  Is it the insults?  Those are bad, but you're oddly silent when the left hurls insults at him or really at really at every Republican.

Should he have been President?  Pretty sure I pointed out real time that neither Trump nor Clinton should have been candidates.  But I'm glad he's been the President.  Other than his lack of the "gravitas" he's been exactly what we've needed.

Quote
But just do one thing, if you can.  Do this one thing every time Trump says something.

Just image how you would feel if Barak Obama has said precisely the same thing.

And consider why that might feel a bit different than what you feel about Trump.

I can't count how many times I've said on this board that Obama is one of the most gifted orators that we've ever had as President.  If he sounded like Trump I'd think he was ill, but that's a silly argument.  Like I said, anyone of average intelligence can understand that the way Trump speaks is a style and understand the meaning of what he says.

DonaldD

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #564 on: April 24, 2020, 11:02:30 PM »
Now he is claiming it was sarcasm.
Yes, it's been quite the week for Trump throwing people under the bus: first, it was Georgia Republican Governor Brian Kemp, initially supporting him in his drive to open the state up for business, then, to mix metaphors, pulling the rug out from under his feet as the governor announced plans to open a bunch of industries, even though the state had not yet federal guidelines.

Then, in the past 24 hours, he threw a bunch of true believers under the bus after they didn't get the memo in time, instead defending his idiocy as reasonable, only for him to pull his now infamous "just kidding" move that stands in for him admitting mistakes... it seems that pretty much the whole world, with the exception of those poor true believers, were ridiculing him as less insightful (albeit quite inciteful) than an 8-year-old, and that seems to have been enough for his ego to kick in...

cherrypoptart

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #565 on: April 24, 2020, 11:13:27 PM »
Yes he said now it was sarcasm and I'm going to say he's not being accurate on the sarcasm bit. Maybe he was searching for the right word to indicate he wasn't being totally serious but instead extemporaneous and it didn't come out sounding very intelligent as can happen when you are just freewheeling your thoughts into words. But does his idea have any merit at all?

A lot of us are getting our internet right now via fiberoptic cable. So those are light pulses going through a cable. And a cable is like a tube. When they intubate to let patients breathe they are sticking a tube down into your body. So instead of an air tube maybe make it a light tube with the virus killing light and you shine that down into the body obviously starting with the throat. See if maybe that kills the virus without killing you first. Like chemo. Then you use nanotubes that are only microns in diameter and you thread those down into the lungs and shine it there. See if that helps. Always check with your doctor first. Maybe for something like this also talk to your astrologist. You want to check your stars because they have a lot of exactly the same kind of light we are talking about here, the kind that can kill viruses.

Okay now see that is sarcasm. It'd be funny though if that could actually work.


wmLambert

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #566 on: April 24, 2020, 11:17:18 PM »
...Bringing Obama into it, it wasn't that we didn't think he was competent. It wasn't that he didn't know exactly what he was doing. It was that he was and he did. He was competent and he knew exactly what he was doing. It was just the wrong thing. Obamacare. DACA. NASA. Churches not being able to select their own clergy. The NLRB recess appointment the Supreme Court overruled him on 9-0. I mean you look at how many unanimous Supreme Court rulings you had against Obama and compare that to Trump's record in the Supreme Court where not only is he not getting overruled unanimously but as far as I can see in the headlines most rulings are going in his favor.

Trump has followed the old Rockefeller advice to "surround himself with his betters." Obama had no friends or acquaintances he could appoint to advisory positions. He knew Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn, and a dozen other radicals who couldn't go through the approval process, so he picked up almost the whole Bill Clinton staff and put them back into power. His own people were appointed as Czars without needing approval, so yes, he did know what he was doing.

Quote
Now that's not to say that I find Trump's coronavirus response competent. I don't. He and the CDC really dropped the ball on this at just about every turn. There are valid criticisms there. But this extemporaneous talking that he has a habit of doing isn't a problem. If it reveals that he doesn't understand things then maybe that's a good thing. If he just kept quiet and nodded and no one ever knew wouldn't that be worse?

Trump loves to praise his advisors and advance their ideas and advice. That doesn't make him a narcissist. I just saw a montage of one MSM "big name" after another flat-out lie about Trump, with no regard for truth. One cannot use them to besmirch Trump. His advisors all say he has been spot-on and say he has been great. Why continue the attacks? The so-called "valid criticisms" are nothing of the sort.

cherrypoptart

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #567 on: April 24, 2020, 11:26:03 PM »
I should qualify what I mean when I say the Trump response to the coronavirus was not competent. Okay now to me I saw this coming but I could have been wrong. It turns out I wasn't. Just looking at what happened in China made it obvious that this was something unlike anything we had ever seen before and the usual measures would be insufficient. And now for the disclaimer. It wasn't just Trump or the CDC or the NIH who dropped the ball. It wasn't just yes men because the same thing happened at the World Health Organization. And they are hardly Trump supporters. Just about everyone in charge of everything got it wrong on this one. The only ones who were right were the chicken littles who screamed that the sky was falling and it's hard to take them seriously when nothing like this has ever happened before. Maybe the closest thing is the Spanish Flu pandemic and this is even different from that. The measures taken by Trump and the WHO and the advice given may have been adequate for the Spanish Flu but this thing is completely new and totally different.

wmLambert

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #568 on: April 24, 2020, 11:35:21 PM »
...The measures taken by Trump and the WHO and the advice given may have been adequate for the Spanish Flu but this thing is completely new and totally different.

Have you been actually following this? Everything you just said is nonsense. Firstly, not Trump and the WHO, but Trump and the CDC. The WHO lied and abetted the Chinese. Trump is the guy who put cross-hairs on the WHO, for which the USA is the primary sponsor. Maybe playing hardball will improve their efforts.

cherrypoptart

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #569 on: April 25, 2020, 12:05:59 AM »
I'm not sure how it's nonsense. Everyone in charge underestimated how deadly and contagious the virus is. They kept travel going long after it should have been halted. The quarantines were insufficient. The CDC testing criteria was absurd. If some of the people who had no travel links to China had been tested earlier we would have known a lot more than we did. It's almost as if they didn't want to know.  By only testing people with China travel contacts it ensured we would remain in the dark as to how widespread it was. And we're still in the dark on that even now because of that. You test someone who had travel contacts to China and they have it and what have you learned? Nothing. Best just to assume they have it if they have symptoms and quarantine them and give them treatment as needed. But you test someone in some other city with no contacts and if they have it that tells you something you didn't know before. We could have caught the community spread much earlier. Then we have the whole mask issue and all the health care professionals catching it and dying. That is not just on the WHO. That's on us too. That's not being prepared. That's a direct result of wearing rose colored glasses and assuming the most optimistic possibilities instead of playing it safe and preparing for the worst.

But as to your point about the WHO being incompetent or worse in bed with China, on that we agree. The mistake we made was to rely on them for anything. The mistake the states made was to rely on the federal government and the CDC. What we learned is that people who are supposed to protect us either can't or just for whatever reasons didn't.

wmLambert

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #570 on: April 25, 2020, 04:29:13 PM »
...The mistake we made was to rely on them for anything. The mistake the states made was to rely on the federal government and the CDC. What we learned is that people who are supposed to protect us either can't or just for whatever reasons didn't.

Again, nothing you said makes any sense. Who have you been listening to? Trump stopped travel when Pelosi was having hug-ins in China Town. WHO was endorsing China's lies, and Democrats swallowed the lies, hook, line, and sucker. Trump threw on the restrictions when the rest said not to. Now you claim he was wrong? Trump ramped up production of ventilators and Protective Equipment, and we have never run short. Just what is your problem?

Kasandra

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #571 on: April 25, 2020, 04:32:27 PM »
Sigh, you're not really adorable, you're a psychofant.

wmLambert

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #572 on: April 25, 2020, 07:48:01 PM »
Sigh, you're not really adorable, you're a psychofant.

The term is Sycophant, and you are using it wrong, anyway. The CDC used bad models because the modelers had bad information with bad metrics. New info is coming in now showing the actual rate of those who have contracted it without even knowing they ever had it, puts the morbidity rate at tenths of a percent - less than the winter flu.

TheDeamon

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #573 on: April 25, 2020, 10:20:57 PM »
If in a business, somebody came into a meeting so unprepared, and started to ask the presenter something equivalent to whether injection of alcohol or chlorine might be helpful... that person wouldn't be long for the company.  While positing that mooting something a child could tell you is a bad idea is some kind of 3-dimensional chess move might be entertaining, the idea that Trump is using his stupidity as strategy really has no basis in reality.

The "strategery" on that one was the media trying to put the most negative spin they possibly can on what he said, which in turn gives him more ammo to use against them going forward.

TheDeamon

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #574 on: April 25, 2020, 10:28:46 PM »
Trump didn't tell people to inject themselves, Trump did ponder if injecting bleach or alcohol could work.  I would very much care if he said the first but don't care to spend time taking about the second unless its a debate on if such pondering should be pondered on a presidential briefing Live. The distraction is the stupid debate and to what did intend to say about bleach and were missing the point by not talking about the real stuff like the antibody test status.

In the context of what he said, as dumb as it was, it's fully on par with Star Trek: Discovery's "It's like Sonar in Space!" quote.

He mentioned a proverbial treatment("something like that"-bleach and UV light) which could achieve the same thing in the human body.

Nothing about his statement indicates he seriously thought injecting someone with bleach was a good idea.

DonaldD

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #575 on: April 25, 2020, 11:07:22 PM »
Quote
The "strategery" on that one was the media trying to put the most negative spin they possibly can
The media didn't need to put any spin on what he said.  Anybody listening, who then replayed it in slow-mo, would come to the conclusion that Trump mooted injecting disinfectant into humans as a possible cure that should be investigated.

He did not tell people to inject themselves, nor even did he promise that it would actually work - but he did suggest that time and effort be expended investigating whether injecting bleach or rubbing alcohol into human bodies might be beneficial ... as opposed to being immediately fatal.

Kasandra

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #576 on: April 26, 2020, 07:09:40 AM »
Sigh, you're not really adorable, you're a psychofant.

The term is Sycophant, and you are using it wrong, anyway. The CDC used bad models because the modelers had bad information with bad metrics. New info is coming in now showing the actual rate of those who have contracted it without even knowing they ever had it, puts the morbidity rate at tenths of a percent - less than the winter flu.

I know the word.  I made this one up (yay, me!) to point out that you have a certain twist of mind that forces you to reflexively say things to make Trump look like he wants to be seen.  It has even taken over whatever math skills that you may have once had, since the death rate from the flu is "rated" at 0.1% (one-tenth of one percent), so if the COVID19 rate turns out to be "tenths of a percent" (0.2% - 0.9999...%), that would be, uh, more, not less.  You can verify this on a calculator, or just ask someone you trust whether what I'm saying is "left math" or just "math".

BTW, the most hopeful model put the projected fatality total in the range of 60,000 - 100,000 through at least the end of July.  We're on a path to exceed the lower bound by next week, 3 months earlier than the prediction estimated.  My guess is that the total will be between 80,000 - 100,000, but could go higher, maybe far higher, depending on how quickly and how well states relax the "social" constraints.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 07:20:26 AM by Kasandra »

cherrypoptart

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #577 on: April 26, 2020, 07:19:54 AM »
The key words in the Trump quote are "something like that".

I didn't get the sense that he was suggesting injecting bleach into someone. He's talking about something new that hasn't been invented yet. I hope anyway...

"A question that probably some of you are thinking of if you’re totally into that world, which I find to be very interesting. So, supposedly we hit the body with a tremendous, whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful light, and I think you said that hasn’t been checked, but you’re going to test it. And then I said supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. (To Bryan) And I think you said you’re going to test that, too. Sounds interesting, right?"

"And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning, because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that, so that you’re going to have to use medical doctors with, but it sounds interesting to me. So, we’ll see, but the whole concept of the light, the way it kills it in one minute. That’s pretty powerful."

It's like someone suggesting you could maybe stop tornadoes by electrically powering the wind turbines so they spin fast enough to counteract the wind of a tornado, just of course being careful that you direct them properly so the winds cancel out instead of multiplying each other and making the tornado even stronger. And then you could use the same principle with the offshore wind farms to stop hurricanes. I mean yeah it's pretty stupid but whatever; just brainstorming. If someone said something like that should they have to worry about a person taking a Chinese silk folding fan with a dragon design on it and running at a tornado or into the middle of a hurricane like a jousting Don Quixote trying to wave the fan furiously enough to create enough wind to stop the storms? It's all just absurd but not anything to get terribly worked up about.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 07:27:15 AM by cherrypoptart »

Kasandra

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #578 on: April 26, 2020, 07:25:03 AM »
Quote
The key words in the Trump quote are "something like that".

I didn't get the sense that he was suggesting injecting bleach into someone. He's talking about something new that hasn't been invented yet. I hope anyway...

Again, that is a (very) hopeful interpretation.  But if that's all he was saying, why have disinfectant manufacturers rushed out warnings not to ingest their products?  Why have doctors made PSAs to make sure people know that disinfectants are poisons (and used as embalmers)?  Why has the NYC Health Department had a surge of calls from people who have had exposure "specifically about exposure to Lysol, 10 cases specifically about bleach and 11 cases about exposures to other household cleaners"?

cherrypoptart

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #579 on: April 26, 2020, 07:29:06 AM »
There are some really dumb people out there. Maybe the tide pod eaters were ahead of their time.

DonaldD

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #580 on: April 26, 2020, 08:47:30 AM »
The existence of stupid people is not news - it is exactly why Lysol et al rushed to make it clear that injecting, and even ingesting, disinfectant products is a really bad, dangerous idea, and it is one more reason why the president suggesting it might be a useful thing to study in public, broadcast live to millions of americans was exceptionally stupid as well. It's not the only reason, mind you - this was multivariate stupid on the president's part.  It was graduate studies level stupid.

LetterRip

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #581 on: April 26, 2020, 11:04:29 AM »
IQ approximates a Bell Curve - 160 million Americans have IQs under 100, 82 million have IQs under 90,  33 million IQs under 80, and 8 million have IQ's under 70.  It isn't clear what the threshold would be that would result in oversimplifying the message and thinking it would be a good idea to drink disinfectant, but there are huge numbers of people that that probably is the case.  Definitely the under 70's, probably the under 80's, and quite likely many of the under 90's.

Kasandra

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #582 on: April 26, 2020, 11:31:13 AM »
To put the same thing a little differently, the comedian George Carlin once said that the average American is pretty stupid, which means that half of us are dumber than that.  I'm always hoping that the average IQ will rise, but this isn't the way to get there.

DonaldD

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #583 on: April 26, 2020, 11:41:52 AM »
By definition, the average IQ will never rise :)

TheDeamon

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #584 on: April 26, 2020, 12:03:09 PM »
By definition, the average IQ will never rise :)

Exactly, by definition, the Average IQ can never go above(or below) 100.  8)

Kasandra

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #585 on: April 26, 2020, 12:03:59 PM »
Pedants! [ok, you're right...WAIT!  Who says 100 is the average?  On a test 100 is a perfect score.  Let's raise it to 105 and see what happens!]

TheDrake

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #586 on: April 26, 2020, 12:21:10 PM »
Just brainstorming... Lol. If that's a brainstorm it's not even a light drizzle.

TheDeamon

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #587 on: April 26, 2020, 12:32:49 PM »
Just brainstorming... Lol. If that's a brainstorm it's not even a light drizzle.

It's a case study in Management styles that are effective in one setting may not be appropriate, or particularly effective, in others.

I do think this is legitimately a style/preference issue, certainly not one I'd expect to see happen involving a PotUS, but can certainly see Trump doing it.

On the business and administrative end, I think Trump is probably reasonably effective, albeit significantly hindered by how his personal style clashes with the establishment in Washington.

On the leadership during a crises side of the spectrum, he's leaving a lot on the table and much to be desired. None of his prior experience can be leveraged to help him handle this situation in a "Presidential" manner, and as Trump is very much a person of habit, we end up with more of the Keystone Cops/Three Stooges as a consequence.

But on the other hand, he's also helping solidify his base politically, anybody who was reasonably impartial or slightly favorable towards Trump prior to all of this is likely to be more solidly in his corner now. But it comes at a cost, as those who didn't like Trump in the first place are even more polarized in the other direction. But the 2020 election calculus is about his ability to get his supporters out the vote, and making sure the people who don't like him either split their vote, or don't bother to show up to vote for Biden at this point.

TheDrake

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #588 on: April 26, 2020, 12:52:51 PM »
This isn't a style issue. It's like the executive chef musing that maybe they should put sauerkraut on a souffle in front of customers and food critics.

wmLambert

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #589 on: April 26, 2020, 06:42:45 PM »
...It's a case study in Management styles that are effective in one setting may not be appropriate, or particularly effective, in others.

I do think this is legitimately a style/preference issue, certainly not one I'd expect to see happen involving a PotUS, but can certainly see Trump doing it.

On the business and administrative end, I think Trump is probably reasonably effective, albeit significantly hindered by how his personal style clashes with the establishment in Washington.

The analysis is on creative group problem solving - not on business and administrative problem solving - which is normally the antithesis of creativity. When Trump restates the ideas put forward by his advisors, the media could help by playing by the creativity hopefulness in which the ideas are created - instead, they put the kibosh and anything and everything, which stultifies any creativity. IOW, they are working against solving any problems.

Here's an example of correct journalistic reportage: "The President mentioned the effectiveness of UV light and disinfectants today, hoping for scientific tests and research that can use them safely. Is this realistic? We'll need to see what the doctors and scientists come up with. Trump is certainly encouraging them to look hard."

There is no need to pretend he was asking for people to poison themselves If they thought that, then the proper reaction would be say not so, when reporting it.

LetterRip

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #590 on: April 26, 2020, 07:15:11 PM »
This isn't a style issue. It's like the executive chef musing that maybe they should put sauerkraut on a souffle in front of customers and food critics.

More like the business partner that provided the money but has no knowledge of cooking.

Aris Katsaris

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #591 on: April 26, 2020, 07:52:03 PM »
Here's an example of correct journalistic reportage: "The President mentioned the effectiveness of UV light and disinfectants today, hoping for scientific tests and research that can use them safely. Is this realistic? We'll need to see what the doctors and scientists come up with. Trump is certainly encouraging them to look hard."

Actually that's not correct journalistic reportage, it's missing the bit where he suggests researching putting them inside the human body, not just "generic effectiveness" (we know about their effectiveness on e.g. disinfecting surfaces).

The commentary of "Is this realistic?" and "We'll need to see what the doctors and scientists come up with" is also hardly 'correct journalistic reportage'.

Such a reportage would be like reporting on flat-earthers with "Are flat-earthers correct? We'll have to see what response the experts come up with."

DonaldD

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #592 on: April 26, 2020, 10:54:35 PM »

Here's an example of correct journalistic reportage: "The President mentioned the effectiveness of UV light and disinfectants today, hoping for scientific tests and research that can use them safely. Is this realistic? We'll need to see what the doctors and scientists come up with. Trump is certainly encouraging them to look hard."
As Aris mentioned, it would be reporting malpractice not to point out that, although the presentation discusses the effectiveness of disinfectants on surfaces, the president misunderstood the presentation and thought it was discussing the effectiveness of disinfectants as medicine, specifically disinfectants as medicine that could be injected into the human body.  Whether the media also need to point out just how unprepared the president had to have been to make this suggestion is another possible topic of reportage.

TheDrake

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #593 on: April 27, 2020, 12:24:20 PM »
It's really just another example of Trump believing he's the smartest guy in the room. He knows more about ISIS than generals, remember? It's easy to understand that he also thinks he knows more about medicine than the doctors, and that his narcissism has him believing that his off the cuff comment could lead doctors to investigate something no virologist has thought of yet.

He also knows more than anyone else about trade, visas, renewable energy, taxes, money, infrastructure, technology, drones, construction, and... Cory Booker.

Trump knows everything

Fenring

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #594 on: April 27, 2020, 12:29:45 PM »
To put the same thing a little differently, the comedian George Carlin once said that the average American is pretty stupid, which means that half of us are dumber than that.  I'm always hoping that the average IQ will rise, but this isn't the way to get there.

Not true! If dumb people inject themselves fatally the average intelligence of 100 IQ will indeed rise :)

On the other hand, it would also mean that everyone's numerical IQ would go down...

yossarian22c

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #595 on: April 27, 2020, 01:32:56 PM »
Quote
What is the purpose of having White House News Conferences when the Lamestream Media asks nothing but hostile questions, & then refuses to report the truth or facts accurately. They get record ratings, & the American people get nothing but Fake News. Not worth the time & effort!

"Record ratings," but not worth his effort to show up and talk with the American people.  ::)


yossarian22c

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #596 on: April 27, 2020, 01:44:49 PM »
The analysis is on creative group problem solving - not on business and administrative problem solving - which is normally the antithesis of creativity. When Trump restates the ideas put forward by his advisors, the media could help by playing by the creativity hopefulness in which the ideas are created - instead, they put the kibosh and anything and everything, which stultifies any creativity. IOW, they are working against solving any problems.

In this best case interpretation of what Trump was saying would you agree that it is stupid to do it during a press conference. CEO's don't have brainstorming sessions during interviews, press briefings, or during investor meetings. Brainstorming sessions are done in private and the best results are then made public. Please stop defending this idiot statement at an idiotic time. Trump isn't even defending it anymore, he called it sarcastic, which is wasn't, then canceled all news briefings so he doesn't have to answer questions from the press anymore.

Kasandra

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #597 on: April 27, 2020, 02:40:20 PM »
To put the same thing a little differently, the comedian George Carlin once said that the average American is pretty stupid, which means that half of us are dumber than that.  I'm always hoping that the average IQ will rise, but this isn't the way to get there.

Not true! If dumb people inject themselves fatally the average intelligence of 100 IQ will indeed rise :)

On the other hand, it would also mean that everyone's numerical IQ would go down...

You're saying if dumb people inject disinfectant or swallow lightbulbs and die, the rest of us only get smarter until they recalibrate the test scores, because that's what regression to the mean is all about, I guess.  That's too bad, because I was hoping I would be able to balance my checkbook before that happens.  Isn't there some other test I could take instead?

Fenring

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #598 on: April 27, 2020, 03:24:17 PM »
You're saying if dumb people inject disinfectant or swallow lightbulbs and die, the rest of us only get smarter until they recalibrate the test scores, because that's what regression to the mean is all about, I guess.

I mean that the species would be smarter on average, and yes, that the median changing would mean that everyone's current IQ score would have to recalibrated lower than it currently is. Imagine Mensa members being kicked out because too many stupid people died :)

wmLambert

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #599 on: April 27, 2020, 07:30:04 PM »
The analysis is on creative group problem solving - not on business and administrative problem solving - which is normally the antithesis of creativity. When Trump restates the ideas put forward by his advisors, the media could help by playing by the creativity hopefulness in which the ideas are created - instead, they put the kibosh and anything and everything, which stultifies any creativity. IOW, they are working against solving any problems.

In this best case interpretation of what Trump was saying would you agree that it is stupid to do it during a press conference. CEO's don't have brainstorming sessions during interviews, press briefings, or during investor meetings. Brainstorming sessions are done in private and the best results are then made public. Please stop defending this idiot statement at an idiotic time. Trump isn't even defending it anymore, he called it sarcastic, which is wasn't, then canceled all news briefings so he doesn't have to answer questions from the press anymore.

Actually, you are incorrect. Trump is addressing more than just the public, he is also addressing myriads of researchers and smart people who are looking in and hoping for something to help them in their work. It's just the way it is. Presidents use the bully pulpit to motivate and encourage, not just to disseminate metrics. When a researcher says something in abstruse ways, a good host will make sure that info is made understandable. Too many posters here have the idea that he says things off the cuff that are unwarranted, but in reality, he rarely moves away from what his advisers have stated - he just makes it more understandable, then the MSM tries to confuse things, working against him.