Author Topic: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:  (Read 123085 times)

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #750 on: May 19, 2020, 01:58:12 PM »
If you don't trust the quote, you could listen to the video (at the link) or read the transcript (at the link).

Just click on the hyperlink - it should open a new tab on your browser.

Not sure why you're commenting about what I trust, I was just asking about the literal content of what you intended to communicate. Notwithstanding the reporting you're citing, your quote makes it sound like "taking this could kill you." Now even if that's true in some fashion, it was the nuance I was curious about. The same fact "slightly increased chance of heart problems" could be written as "this generally safe medication does carry some risk in rare cases" or it could be written as "if you take this you could die." Technically those maybe saying the same thing, but they don't sound the same, nor do they communicate the same thing. That's basically what I was asking about.

This reminds me of the movie Crazy People with Dudley Moore; I recommend it even though I haven't seen it in like 25 years. So maybe it actually sucks. But anyhow, in the film a group of crazy people start working with an ad man and they come up with crazy ads (who woulda thought it) which include a medical ad stating something like "buy this or you will die." Naturally it sold very well after that, and although IRL obviously that's illegal, it's funny because it's a potentially technically true statement inflated into absurdity so that it becomes obviously deceptive in its tone.
It's really bizarre the things you wonder about - there have been any number of standalone quotes posted in this thread - you can take them any way you want.

i will observe, however, that just as we can infer bias not just in how CNN reports, but also about what they choose to report, and just as we can infer bias not just in how Foxnews reports, but also about what they choose to report, we can infer quite a bit from what you choose to question...

ScottF

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #751 on: May 19, 2020, 01:58:24 PM »
I'd highly recommend Joe Rogan's podcast from a few days ago where Dr.Rhonda Patrick speaks at length on how vitamin D is absorbed and leveraged within the body, as well as it's potential benefits with SARS-COV2. She's written numerous papers on the effects of micronutrient (vitamins and minerals) deficiencies on metabolism, inflammation, DNA damage, and aging in people.

It's fascinating stuff - she's quite measured and I promise the needle on your quackery meter won't even budge.


Fenring

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #752 on: May 19, 2020, 02:13:25 PM »
It's really bizarre the things you wonder about - there have been any number of standalone quotes posted in this thread - you can take them any way you want.

Yours is the first post stating unequivocally that taking this medication will kill you, and I find it peculiar that you're surprised your post got a reaction of surprise. I already mentioned how the article reminded me of Crazy People, "if you take this you will die!" which is a grossly misleading thing to say about an uncommon side effect. Now I'm not going to go WebMD on this and start disputing how rare or how common the bad side effects are, especially as I'm not steeped in this topic, but what I was questioning was you picking an article to link and quoting it in order to (as far as I understood) say to us that taking this medication would kill you. My initial question was to verify whether you were just posting us a link of interest, i.e. that you were just passing on something that caught your eye, or whether you were definitively using the quote to state that it will kill you (as Cavuto in the article says outright). If, as it appears, you intended the latter, then it is a matter of medical fact and not what one guy says.

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i will observe, however, that just as we can infer bias not just in how CNN reports, but also about what they choose to report, and just as we can infer bias not just in how Foxnews reports, but also about what they choose to report, we can infer quite a bit from what you choose to question...

You're saying you find spin or propaganda intent in my questioning your post where you say a medication will kill you even though other posters seem to have read that it's mostly safe and has been used for decades? I find it puzzling that you can't see room for questions on this without the questioner clearly being a spin doctor.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #753 on: May 19, 2020, 02:27:22 PM »
Yours is the first post stating unequivocally that taking this medication will kill you, and I find it peculiar that you're surprised your post got a reaction of surprise.
My post didn't state anything unequivocally - it was simply two quotes from the Foxnews article, and as far as equivocation, right there in the quote were the words "[of] those certainly vulnerable, the population have one thing to lose, their lives".

As for getting "a reaction of surprise" - there was no such reaction in your post, just a question that you could answer for yourself by reading the quote or the linked article.
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You're saying you find spin or propaganda intent in my questioning your post where you say a medication will kill you even though other posters seem to have read that it's mostly safe and has been used for decades? I
No, your bias is evident in your posting pattern, by your on-going choices of what you question and what you contest.  I will assume you are not self-aware enough to see this pattern, as you genuinely seem to be surprised when your biases are pointed out to you, so I pointed it out to you once again so you might notice your own patterns.
 

ScottF

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #754 on: May 19, 2020, 02:59:48 PM »
your bias is evident in your posting pattern, by your on-going choices of what you question and what you contest.

If this not the case for every poster, ever? Pointing out that someone posts questions and comments in patterns directly tied to their bias seems redundant.

Fenring

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #755 on: May 19, 2020, 03:06:46 PM »
My post didn't state anything unequivocally - it was simply two quotes from the Foxnews article, and as far as equivocation, right there in the quote were the words "[of] those certainly vulnerable, the population have one thing to lose, their lives".

Sure, I understand the qualification, but the article didn't state a higher risk, it said outright "you will die", which I found startling. So either this is pure poison that will kill anyone vulnerable, basically arsenic to them, or not, in which case it's hyperbole. I couldn't tell you which it is.

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As for getting "a reaction of surprise" - there was no such reaction in your post, just a question that you could answer for yourself by reading the quote or the linked article.

The article told me what he thought, but not what *you* thought. I don't think it should be so mysterious for you to reveal whether you quoted the article because you agree with it, or because you just think it's interesting. I would think that's a fairly basic distinction. Now people here usually post stuff they agree with, so the safe bet would be you agree with it, but I wanted to be sure.

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No, your bias is evident in your posting pattern, by your on-going choices of what you question and what you contest.  I will assume you are not self-aware enough to see this pattern, as you genuinely seem to be surprised when your biases are pointed out to you, so I pointed it out to you once again so you might notice your own patterns.

What is evident to me is that when questioning a left-wing position I'm called a Republican pundit, and when questioning right-wing positions they call me a leftist commie. Since Trump has been dominating threads here for a few years more often than not the talking points are Trump-related and so the 'wild' posts tend to be anti-Trump. But previously when there were threads on other issues such as UBI, health care, police militarization, and economics generally, I was lumped in with socialists. So you might want to reconsider your certainty about which 'camp' I'm in and consider the possibility that there's a general trend towards equating any disagreement with being part of the enemy camp. It's an easy way to deflect critique while rationalizing that it was probably irrational anyhow.

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #756 on: May 19, 2020, 03:12:28 PM »
...What is evident to me is that when questioning a left-wing position I'm called a Republican pundit, and when questioning right-wing positions they call me a leftist commie. Since Trump has been dominating threads here for a few years more often than not the talking points are Trump-related and so the 'wild' posts tend to be anti-Trump. But previously when there were threads on other issues such as UBI, health care, police militarization, and economics generally, I was lumped in with socialists. So you might want to reconsider your certainty about which 'camp' I'm in and consider the possibility that there's a general trend towards equating any disagreement with being part of the enemy camp. It's an easy way to deflect critique while rationalizing that it was probably irrational anyhow.

Well, where should we place you on the Libertarian-Conservative-Progressive-Socialist scale, when you say you "Feel the Bern?"

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #757 on: May 19, 2020, 03:19:07 PM »
your bias is evident in your posting pattern, by your on-going choices of what you question and what you contest.

If this not the case for every poster, ever? Pointing out that someone posts questions and comments in patterns directly tied to their bias seems redundant.
Ah, except Fenring consistently, actively claims to not have the particular biases that are evident in his posting style, so far as to use this belief in his own bona fides as a shield against even the perception of bias.  I would love it if Fenring was self aware enough to own his biases, but he seemingly is not and cannot.

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #758 on: May 19, 2020, 04:18:07 PM »
...Ah, except Fenring consistently, actively claims to not have the particular biases that are evident in his posting style, so far as to use this belief in his own bona fides as a shield against even the perception of bias.  I would love it if Fenring was self aware enough to own his biases, but he seemingly is not and cannot.

No, I give Fenring more credit than that. A person may hold convictions and still maintain an open mind. Asking for people to explain themselves and provide data and good reference material is not pandering.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #759 on: May 19, 2020, 04:19:46 PM »
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Now I'm not going to go WebMD on this and start disputing how rare or how common the bad side effects are, especially as I'm not steeped in this topic

Among some of the material that has been posted and then paraphrased is that they stopped a small trial particularly because they were seeing disturbing side effects. Not that over millions of people there are a handful of bad outcomes - like with vaccines.

I can't blame someone for not digging out that nugget. But to accuse someone else of hyperbolic estimates of bad side effects without getting that background is probably not productive.

The point here is that CDC says it is generally safe to treat specific diseases whose outcomes are proven much worse than not taking the medication. To take it to treat a disease for which outcomes are unclear or indicated negative makes it not safe, in relative terms.

Fenring

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #760 on: May 19, 2020, 05:05:06 PM »
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If this not the case for every poster, ever? Pointing out that someone posts questions and comments in patterns directly tied to their bias seems redundant.
Ah, except Fenring consistently, actively claims to not have the particular biases that are evident in his posting style, so far as to use this belief in his own bona fides as a shield against even the perception of bias.  I would love it if Fenring was self aware enough to own his biases, but he seemingly is not and cannot.

I don't quite think I've ever claimed not to have any biases! What I do claim is that it's far-fetched to assume that contrary arguments originate from the enemy camp when I seem at various times to be an enemy of both camps. That's rather peculiar, wouldn't you say? I don't really need a shield against my own bias; it's mine, and I'm happy with it. The shield you speak of is an attempt at a shield against the red/blue filter that gets applied almost instinctively.

I suppose if you think I'm outrageously blind you might explain (very briefly) what you think my biases are that so color my posts. Like, on a general basis, do you think they are partisan biases?

Fenring

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #761 on: May 19, 2020, 05:08:40 PM »
I can't blame someone for not digging out that nugget. But to accuse someone else of hyperbolic estimates of bad side effects without getting that background is probably not productive.

Do you mean that I accused DonaldD, or the fella in the article he quoted? You may note (if you review) that my initial post on the topic was literally a question about whether DonaldD was making the claim in the quote, or just quoting it as a matter of public interest. I literally didn't offer an opinion of it other than to ask what DonaldD intended with the post, and that already got pushback. You may reconsider whether my OP was an "accusation".

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The point here is that CDC says it is generally safe to treat specific diseases whose outcomes are proven much worse than not taking the medication. To take it to treat a disease for which outcomes are unclear or indicated negative makes it not safe, in relative terms.

That's fine, I don't have any stake in whether anyone takes this medication or not. But what you just said is not equivalent to "if you are vulnerable and you take it, you will die." Do you concede that detail?

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #762 on: May 19, 2020, 05:59:34 PM »

That's fine, I don't have any stake in whether anyone takes this medication or not. But what you just said is not equivalent to "if you are vulnerable and you take it, you will die." Do you concede that detail?

The quote doesn't say that. It doesn't say "you, one individual, will die". It says "you have one thing to lose". If you tell somebody "spin the roulette wheel, what have you got to lose" than an appropriate response would be to say "you definitely have one thing to lose, your money".

Comparing it to fictional deceptive advertising is an accusation that the point of view has no merit.

Fenring

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #763 on: May 19, 2020, 06:12:20 PM »
The quote doesn't say that. It doesn't say "you, one individual, will die". It says "you have one thing to lose". If you tell somebody "spin the roulette wheel, what have you got to lose" than an appropriate response would be to say "you definitely have one thing to lose, your money".

Yeah, that's *that* quote. Check out the article, man:

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"The VA study, to which the president alluded, wasn't a loaded political one. It was a test on patients there and those who took it in a vulnerable population, including those with respiratory or other conditions. They died," Cavuto said. "I want to stress again. They died."

This doesn't say "some of them died", or "a small percentage of them died." He says that in a test on patients, they died. That certainly makes it sound like 100% of them. He follows with this:

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"If you are in a risky population here and you are taking this as a preventative treatment to ward off the virus, or in a worst case scenario, you are dealing with the virus and you are in this vulnerable population it will kill you," Cavuto warned. "I cannot stress enough. This will kill you."

(bold is mine)

I am not misstating what the article says, he says outright that it will kill you if you are in a vulnerable population. That is *exactly* like the advert from Crazy People. I don't see why I'm getting pushback on that it sounds hyperbolic, other than that it seems in some way that I'm "opposing" science or something.

oldbrian

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #764 on: May 20, 2020, 08:49:00 AM »
It is a conflation of
     1) the study results, which show a statistical increase in deaths from heart attack,
 and
     2) a bloviating pundit, who like all pundits, spins it up to 11

Fenring is questioning the pundit, but the original post was referring to the study, with a link buried in the pundits transcript.

Classic mis-communication.  I hope.

The bottom line is, it has a better-than-placebo chance of killing you, so don't take it unless the illness has an even larger chance of killing you.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #765 on: May 20, 2020, 09:11:47 AM »
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Q    The FDA has said hydroxychloroquine should not be used outside of a hospital setting or outside of a research study.

THE PRESIDENT:  No, that’s not what I was told.  No.

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FDA cautions against use of hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine for COVID-19 outside of the hospital setting or a clinical trial due to risk of heart rhythm problems.
I guess, theoretically, the president might not be aware of what his FDA is telling people about his pet project... Or maybe, his advisers are misinforming him.


Crunch

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #766 on: May 20, 2020, 09:15:57 AM »

The bottom line is, it has a better-than-placebo chance of killing you, so don't take it unless the illness has an even larger chance of killing you.

All drugs have complications. Therefore, one should not take any drugs.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #767 on: May 20, 2020, 09:18:47 AM »

The bottom line is, it has a better-than-placebo chance of killing you, so don't take it unless the illness has an even larger chance of killing you.

All drugs have complications. Therefore, one should not take any drugs.
What is the point of quoting something and then simply ignoring the content?  I assume that was meant as a paraphrase, but if so, it fails for saying the exact opposite of what was written.

Crunch

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #768 on: May 20, 2020, 09:21:05 AM »

The bottom line is, it has a better-than-placebo chance of killing you, so don't take it unless the illness has an even larger chance of killing you.

All drugs have complications. Therefore, one should not take any drugs.
What is the point of quoting something and then simply ignoring the content?  I assume that was meant as a paraphrase, but if so, it fails for saying the exact opposite of what was written.

You're the guy claiming that taking 5x the recommended dose proves a drug in too deadly to use for any reason. Might want to sit this one out.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #769 on: May 20, 2020, 09:25:55 AM »
You're the guy claiming that taking 5x the recommended dose proves a drug in too deadly to use for any reason. Might want to sit this one out.
You are a truly weird bird - when you're not transparently misinterpreting things like you did with oldbrian's post, you are 'misrepresenting' other people's posts like you did here.

Just to be clear, then - you don't want to address how you misinterpreted a statement that a middle-schooler would have no problem parsing?

Crunch

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #770 on: May 20, 2020, 09:29:38 AM »
I remember you from way back like early 2000's, when you went on and on about "intellectual honesty". Do you remember that? That guy was alright. How things have changed.

Kasandra

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #771 on: May 20, 2020, 09:33:50 AM »
I remember you from way back like early 2000's, when you went on and on about "intellectual honesty". Do you remember that? That guy was alright. How things have changed.

You're a self-proclaimed expert in logical fallacies (and who would know what you are an expert in better than you).  Your comment is a straight-up ad hominem meant to distract, isn't it?  Shame on you!

Aris Katsaris

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #772 on: May 20, 2020, 10:00:02 AM »
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52733220
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"By the way," he told reporters, "you know when you say that we lead in cases, that's because we have more testing than anybody else."

"So when we have a lot of cases," he continued, "I don't look at that as a bad thing, I look at that as, in a certain respect, as being a good thing because it means our testing is much better."

He added: "So I view it as a badge of honour. Really, it's a badge of honour.

"It's a great tribute to the testing and all of the work that a lot of professionals have done."

...okay.

I'm guessing that, by the same logic, leading in deaths is a great tribute to the great work that all the coroners and gravediggers have done.

ScottF

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #773 on: May 20, 2020, 11:02:44 AM »
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52733220
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"By the way," he told reporters, "you know when you say that we lead in cases, that's because we have more testing than anybody else."

"So when we have a lot of cases," he continued, "I don't look at that as a bad thing, I look at that as, in a certain respect, as being a good thing because it means our testing is much better."

He added: "So I view it as a badge of honour. Really, it's a badge of honour.

"It's a great tribute to the testing and all of the work that a lot of professionals have done."

...okay.

I'm guessing that, by the same logic, leading in deaths is a great tribute to the great work that all the coroners and gravediggers have done.

You shouldn't guess. It's pretty clear he's stating that testing more is a good thing, and will result in more infections being made known. But you knew that.

Rather than bad-faith guesses,  I find more interesting the fact that we can't give these tests away these days. We literally have more supply than demand.

Aris Katsaris

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #774 on: May 20, 2020, 12:15:22 PM »
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52733220
Quote
"By the way," he told reporters, "you know when you say that we lead in cases, that's because we have more testing than anybody else."

"So when we have a lot of cases," he continued, "I don't look at that as a bad thing, I look at that as, in a certain respect, as being a good thing because it means our testing is much better."

He added: "So I view it as a badge of honour. Really, it's a badge of honour.

"It's a great tribute to the testing and all of the work that a lot of professionals have done."

...okay.

I'm guessing that, by the same logic, leading in deaths is a great tribute to the great work that all the coroners and gravediggers have done.

You shouldn't guess. It's pretty clear he's stating that testing more is a good thing, and will result in more infections being made known. But you knew that.

Yes, it's "clear", in the sense that it falsely implies that this supposedly greater amount of testing is the ONLY reason that USA has so many infections, as if every nation in the world has them, just doesn't know it. I'm afraid that Trump needs to substantiate such an implied claim with evidence, rather than just assert it.

Unfortunately all the evidence is against such a claim: Per-capita, USA is only 38th in the world in tests, but 12th in the world in regards to both COVID-19 deaths per capita and also 12th in total cases per capita. ( https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries )

Most nations in the world have more tests per confirmed-case than USA does, also, if you think that metric is more valuable. See for example: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/number-of-covid-19-tests-per-confirmed-case?country=ITA+SWE+DEU+IND+USA+GRC+GBR+TWN+KOR+JPN+ISR
(Just an arbitrary selection of countries, you can choose your own)

Taiwan had 158.3 tests for every confirmed case -- meaning it tests 157 healthy people for every single infected one it finds.
On the other hand, USA makes 8 tests for every confirmed case. So, it just tests 7 healthy people for every single infected. Which one do you think is more likely to not be finding every infected person?

Most 1st-world nations had both more per-capita and more per-confirmed-case testing than USA did.

So, basically -- the implication that you have that many confirmed cases because you have so many tests... well frankly you just don't have that many tests, adjusted per population (though of courses the deaths/cases should also be adjusted per population, to be fair).

Fenring

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #775 on: May 20, 2020, 12:20:30 PM »
It is a conflation of
     1) the study results, which show a statistical increase in deaths from heart attack,
 and
     2) a bloviating pundit, who like all pundits, spins it up to 11

Fenring is questioning the pundit, but the original post was referring to the study, with a link buried in the pundits transcript.

Correct.

It's become strange how it's unbelievable to people that questioning something about an article is treated as a direct assault against science, humanity, and all the other sacred cows. The kneejerk pushback is both instantaneous and impartial; any objection is treated equally: like a virus attacking the entire host. Why should we be surprised that compromise seems impossible?

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #776 on: May 20, 2020, 07:27:10 PM »
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When will they open a Cold Case on the Psycho Joe Scarborough matter in Florida. Did he get away with murder?
:o

This man is the head of the US government...  the real one, not just on The Simpsons .

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #777 on: May 22, 2020, 02:42:44 PM »
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When will they open a Cold Case on the Psycho Joe Scarborough matter in Florida. Did he get away with murder?
:o

This man is the head of the US government...  the real one, not just on The Simpsons .
I find it refreshing that there are some statements made by the president that are just so indefensible that no one here even attempts to, well, defend them.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #778 on: May 24, 2020, 10:22:29 PM »
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When will they open a Cold Case on the Psycho Joe Scarborough matter in Florida. Did he get away with murder?
:o

This man is the head of the US government...  the real one, not just on The Simpsons .
...and... Trump doubles-down on the stupid
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A blow to her head? Body found under his desk? Left Congress suddenly? Big topic of discussion in Florida...and, he’s a Nut Job (with bad ratings). Keep digging, use forensic geniuses!

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #779 on: May 25, 2020, 10:19:07 AM »
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I love the Great State of North Carolina, so much so that I insisted on having the Republican National Convention in Charlotte at the end of August. Unfortunately, Democrat Governor, @RoyCooperNC is still in Shutdown mood & unable to guarantee that by August we will be allowed full attendance in the Arena. In other words, we would be spending millions of dollars building the Arena to a very high standard without even knowing if the Democrat Governor would allow the Republican Party to fully occupy the space. Plans are being made by many thousands of enthusiastic Republicans, and others, to head to beautiful North Carolina in August. They must be immediately given an answer by the Governor as to whether or not the space will be allowed to be fully occupied.

rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #780 on: May 25, 2020, 10:36:44 AM »
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I love the Great State of North Carolina, so much so that I insisted on having the Republican National Convention in Charlotte at the end of August. Unfortunately, Democrat Governor, @RoyCooperNC is still in Shutdown mood & unable to guarantee that by August we will be allowed full attendance in the Arena. In other words, we would be spending millions of dollars building the Arena to a very high standard without even knowing if the Democrat Governor would allow the Republican Party to fully occupy the space. Plans are being made by many thousands of enthusiastic Republicans, and others, to head to beautiful North Carolina in August. They must be immediately given an answer by the Governor as to whether or not the space will be allowed to be fully occupied.

As long as the GOP pays for everything and takes full responsibility - open the space

Kasandra

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #781 on: May 25, 2020, 10:45:58 AM »
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As long as the GOP pays for everything and takes full responsibility - open the space

What about the attendees who would take the virus home and spread it to their families and communities?

rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #782 on: May 25, 2020, 11:35:29 AM »
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As long as the GOP pays for everything and takes full responsibility - open the space

What about the attendees who would take the virus home and spread it to their families and communities?

I wouldn't want to take responsibility for that, but if the GOP is willing too and its members and those working in the arena accept the risk then that's on them.

The question is are we our brothers keepers and how far does that go. Can you protect someone that does not want to be protected. Yes society on the whole has to pay for it, financially, emotionally, spiritually... in the end but that is how its always been, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Take smoking. I hate the reality of how much it costs us with regards the healthcare and don't think the income generated by selling tobacco comes close to what it costs society on the whole. But were not going to change that boundary of the freedom to choose risk of what may impact the quality of our life even if that choice overall impacts a society negatively.   

yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #783 on: May 25, 2020, 11:43:31 AM »
As long as the GOP pays for everything and takes full responsibility - open the space

NIMBY.

Screw that. If it leads to an outbreak down the road from me and we have to close schools and businesses again the GOP saying "my bad" doesn't make up for that. Not to mention the fact it could easily cause a local spike and one that spreads out across the country. A mass gathering like this with people traveling in, spending lots of time indoors together, and then fanning back out across the country is probably one of the highest risk events you can have.

Politically a coronavirus outbreak stemming from the RNC national convention would doom Trump but even though I want him to lose, the cost is too high for it to go down that way.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2020, 11:50:35 AM by yossarian22c »

Kasandra

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #784 on: May 25, 2020, 11:48:00 AM »
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I wouldn't want to take responsibility for that, but if the GOP is willing too and its members and those working in the arena accept the risk then that's on them.

The question is are we our brothers keepers and how far does that go. Can you protect someone that does not want to be protected.

This misses the point.  I'm a Darwinian realist in that I believe you have the right to harm yourself (but probably should get therapy or treatment to address the problem), but you have no right to impose that harm on others.  It's unavoidable that some people will get it even if they take precautions and will spread it to others who take precautions, but I can't see how it makes sense to allow thousands of people to congregate and potentially give the disease to others who become their victims. 

That is the reason why there are non-smoking laws.  No one will try to stop you from smoking 4 packs a day in your own home in the presence of your small children, but the laws prevent you from smoking in public spaces where the smoke will get into other people's lungs.  You may not like that law, either, but it makes a lot of sense.  I say that as a former 2-pack a day smoker who could have cared less about smoking in the midst of strangers and co-workers at the time, but I quit (cold turkey) when my wife was pregnant with our daughter.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #785 on: May 25, 2020, 12:37:26 PM »
Anybody who makes a commitment now about what will be allowed in August is not being completely honest.

And anybody asking for a commitment now for what will occur in August is simply posturing, politically.

rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #786 on: May 25, 2020, 12:41:30 PM »
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I wouldn't want to take responsibility for that, but if the GOP is willing too and its members and those working in the arena accept the risk then that's on them.

The question is are we our brothers keepers and how far does that go. Can you protect someone that does not want to be protected.

This misses the point.  I'm a Darwinian realist in that I believe you have the right to harm yourself (but probably should get therapy or treatment to address the problem), but you have no right to impose that harm on others.  It's unavoidable that some people will get it even if they take precautions and will spread it to others who take precautions, but I can't see how it makes sense to allow thousands of people to congregate and potentially give the disease to others who become their victims. 

That is the reason why there are non-smoking laws.  No one will try to stop you from smoking 4 packs a day in your own home in the presence of your small children, but the laws prevent you from smoking in public spaces where the smoke will get into other people's lungs.  You may not like that law, either, but it makes a lot of sense.  I say that as a former 2-pack a day smoker who could have cared less about smoking in the midst of strangers and co-workers at the time, but I quit (cold turkey) when my wife was pregnant with our daughter.

It doesn't make sense to you or me however GOP don't believe that will happen and or desire that the 'herd immunity' is the way to go - that those who are going to die from the virus are going to die if not today then tomorrow.... I don't think that is true, if the health care system is overwhelmed then more people will die that  may not have died if it wasn't overwhelmed. But what I think doesn't matter as it concerns the GOP which currently holds the balance of power.  If the GOP open the arena and things go sideways they must be held accountable... they won't be. But they should.

With regards to smoking laws the cost to society is still higher then the profit from tobacco sales. If we desired the greater good for the many we would stop selling tobacco... We might also force people to eat better, stop taking drugs, etc... but we won't.. The reality is other peoples actions affect other people  and how we define that boundary that freedom, is the main purpose of government.

Don't like where the GOP sets those boundaries, don't vote for them. (Of course the DNC will get lost in the stupidity of purity poultices and forget that)

ScottF

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #787 on: May 25, 2020, 12:48:28 PM »
Anybody who makes a commitment now about what will be allowed in August is not being completely honest.

And anybody asking for a commitment now for what will occur in August is simply posturing, politically.

Agree with the first but not the second. If we're basing policies on science, why shouldn't commitments be made if/when the data supports them? Unless you're saying that there is no data that would ever support a commitment for August? The fallback used to be "just wait 2 weeks" but as everything remains relatively stable it's shifted to 'there's just so much we still don't know".

Reminds me of a crude joke that ends with the hunter telling the bear "I definitely get the feeling you're not a normal bear." to which the bear replies "I definitely get the feeling you're not out here just to hunt".

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #788 on: May 25, 2020, 12:59:58 PM »
Anybody who makes a commitment now about what will be allowed in August is not being completely honest.

And anybody asking for a commitment now for what will occur in August is simply posturing, politically.

Agree with the first but not the second. If we're basing policies on science, why shouldn't commitments be made if/when the data supports them? Unless you're saying that there is no data that would ever support a commitment for August? The fallback used to be "just wait 2 weeks" but as everything remains relatively stable it's shifted to 'there's just so much we still don't know".

Reminds me of a crude joke that ends with the hunter telling the bear "I definitely get the feeling you're not a normal bear." to which the bear replies "I definitely get the feeling you're not out here just to hunt".
A commitment made now is written on tissue paper.  Anybody can make a commitment for August, but does anybody really believe that if things go sideways in late July, even if just in certain geographical areas of the country, that new regulations would not be implemented, and that those regulations just might restrict attendance to groups of the size of political conventions?  And that these restrictions would not be contingent on a 'guarantee' made by one politician to another politician in May?  I guarantee that everybody in the RNC already knows this.


DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #789 on: May 25, 2020, 02:53:38 PM »
Not to mention - the data does NOT currently support having ~10,000 people from every state and many if not most counties in the country mingling in enclosed areas for days on end.

The only way you get there in August is by trusting models and correct me if I'm wrong - but the people who resist questioning Trump on this topic are those most cynical about modelling...

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #790 on: May 25, 2020, 07:09:15 PM »
Not to mention - the data does NOT currently support having ~10,000 people from every state and many if not most counties in the country mingling in enclosed areas for days on end.

The only way you get there in August is by trusting models and correct me if I'm wrong - but the people who resist questioning Trump on this topic are those most cynical about modelling...

Uh, there is a way to do it, but they probably wouldn't like the provisions needed to make it happen.

They need to self-quarantine for at least a few days in advance(preferably at the destination city--as they could become infected on their way to the city if using a (semi-)public mode of transport), they then need to be tested for covid19. At that point, they can wander the convention floor if they're asymptomatic and testing negative.

You may want to test them daily just to make sure it's still safe for them to be on the floor with others.

After the convention ends, they're back in self-quarantine for a couple days before testing them again to verify "safe to travel" at which point they can go home.

Where they'll probably want to test again a few days later to verify they didn't pick it up while in transit back home.

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #791 on: May 25, 2020, 09:40:05 PM »
...there is a way to do it, but they probably wouldn't like the provisions needed to make it happen.

Neither party really needs a convention. Trump is the outcome, and he's already in place. However; for the Democrats, they would love to do the nomination process by remote control: less chance for Biden to implode, and less transparency while the top dogs make all the decisions.


DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #792 on: May 26, 2020, 08:03:19 PM »
On Memorial Day, Trump attacks and lies about Marine Corps veteran Conor Lamb:
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Sean Parnell is an American Hero. Connor Lamm has proven to be an American fraud, and a puppet for Crazy Nancy Pelosi. He said he would NOT vote for her for Speaker, and did. Will kill 2A. Voted to impeach (on nothing). A TOTAL & COMPLETE Sean Parnell Endorsement!

Kasandra

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #793 on: May 27, 2020, 06:43:45 AM »
Impressive that Trump managed to misspell both his first and last names.  I'm sure he was just jokking.

Kasandra

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #794 on: May 27, 2020, 09:15:15 AM »
Impressive that Trump managed to misspell both his first and last names.  I'm sure he was just jokking.

It's uncanny, if not unnatural, how often Trump mispells, mispronounzes or misreplacements words.  I wonder if he found and uses this site.  If he does he could have tweeted:

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Ipmressive thta Turmp maanged to misspell btoh hsi fisrt and lsta nmeas. Im' suer he was juts jokkign.

yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #795 on: May 27, 2020, 12:30:16 PM »
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Republicans feel that Social Media Platforms totally silence conservatives voices. We will strongly regulate, or close them down, before we can ever allow this to happen. We saw what they attempted to do, and failed, in 2016. We can’t let a more sophisticated version of that....happen again.

Guess republicans are all for the free market, unless the free market starts limiting the spread of unfounded conspiracy theories.

Kasandra

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #796 on: May 27, 2020, 01:18:40 PM »
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Republicans feel that Social Media Platforms totally silence conservatives voices. We will strongly regulate, or close them down, before we can ever allow this to happen. We saw what they attempted to do, and failed, in 2016. We can’t let a more sophisticated version of that....happen again.

Guess republicans are all for the free market, unless the free market starts limiting the spread of unfounded conspiracy theories.

It's simpler than that for Trump.  Either you're with me, or I'll *censored*ing rip your heart out and beat you to death with it.

Aris Katsaris

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #797 on: May 27, 2020, 06:29:20 PM »
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In America we need more prayer, not less.

This from the same guy who bragged about grabbing women by the pussy.

Do any of you at all think he actually genuinely believes in any God whatsoever?

What a *censored*ing absolute piece of *censored*.

yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #798 on: June 01, 2020, 11:45:00 PM »
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If you don't dominate, you're wasting your time. They're going to run over you. You are going to look like a bunch of jerks. You have to dominate.

Perfect deescalation advice from the president.  ::)

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #799 on: June 01, 2020, 11:59:56 PM »
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If the city or state refuses to take the actions that are necessary to defend the life and property of their residence, then I will deploy the United States military and quickly solve the problem for them.