Author Topic: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:  (Read 122535 times)

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1700 on: October 06, 2020, 06:25:29 PM »
So Trump says he is showing up for the next scheduled debate, as I predicted. Are all of you well-wishers going to keep beating this drum if he stays true to form during his next encounter with Basement Biden?

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1701 on: October 06, 2020, 06:41:06 PM »
I still hope he recovers fully and quickly, yes.

When is the next debate - town hall, right?  It may need to be held virtually, depending on the timing.

Wayward Son

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1702 on: October 06, 2020, 07:15:39 PM »
It will be interesting to see if Trump can keep standing through the debate. :)

Did you see him when he came back from the hospital?  My wife pointed out that, when he put his face mask in his pocket, he grimaced from pain.  Then you could see him, swaying slightly, his face screwed up trying to keep it neutral.  He was in pain.  He was having a hard time just standing there.  Trump is still very sick.  (Feeling better than he did 20 years ago my @ss! ;D) Which means he has a pretty good chance of having a severe relapse before the debate.

No one should go near Trump for the next couple of weeks.  He's a carrier.  He's liable to infect everyone around.  I doubt Biden will get anywhere near Trump.  Unlike Trump, he's smart enough not to risk his life over some stupid macho desire to show how tough he is.

Calling him "Basement Biden" just shows why he would be a better president than Trump.  He has a lot more common sense.  :)

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1703 on: October 06, 2020, 10:34:52 PM »
...Stand by for what?  A sign from God?  Or a sign from Trump?  (Or am I being redundant to Trumpists? ;) )

Has anyone mention that the Proud Boys is NOT a White Supremist organization, and has actually spoken out against them? Why would Trump be expected to know about them? And more importantly, why did Chris Wallace and Biden even bring them up?

Quote
The Proud Boys are a far-right, neo-fascist, and male-only organization that promotes and engages in political violence in the United States and Canada. While the group officially rejects racism, several members have been affiliated with white supremacy and leaders often share white nationalist content within the group
Walks like a duck, smells like a duck might be a duck. But sure like Trump the Proud Boys can create their own reality and everyone must buy in.

For someone as smart and informed as Trump, no one is smarter or has the best words, one might expect that he knows something about such things as Proud Boys. He knew about Antifa?
Maybe Wallace and Biden should have said the KKK but Trump doesn't know anything about them either. Of course Trump could have just denounced White Supremacy in general without the need for a specific name. Or maybe Trump needs to be infected before he learns anything. I was glad to hear yesterday that after 8 months he learned all about covid.  Stand by and follow me.

Trump always knows everything unless knowing something might mean he might need to take responsibility.

It would seem that, Trump knowing everything as you say :) well, at least he now knows that the Proud Boys are white supremacists:

Quote
I’ve said it many times, but let me be clear again: I condemn the KKK. I condemn all white supremacists. I condemn the Proud Boys.

cherrypoptart

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1704 on: October 07, 2020, 12:06:13 AM »
So apparently Trump is getting the VIP treatment with his care and that makes people upset.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/vip-syndrome-trump-discharge-walter-reed-expert-164959783.html

"Alfandre noted that while “VIP” may imply these individuals receive better treatment, many times it’s the opposite. “In spite of these perceived benefits, the quality of their care may be inferior because health care staff may be more likely to deviate from standard practices when caring for them.”

Reports about Trump’s care, which have come mostly from press briefings, suggest an atypical experience. On top of being released after three days in the hospital, while still in the midst of treatment, he’s reportedly received multiple experimental treatments — including the antiviral remdesivir, an unapproved monoclonal antibody therapy and a corticosteroid known as dexamethasone. The three are rarely (if ever) given together and are typically reserved for serious illness.

McIntosh says all of this aligns with VIP syndrome, which can lead to both too much and too little care...

... “We have an ethical code of conduct we have to follow whereby we’re told to respect patient autonomy, to treat everybody equal and not to differentiate care based on somebody’s race, gender or socioeconomic status,” says McIntosh. “So we’re being told really to practice unethically.” Currently teaching her students about the dangers of the syndrome, McIntosh hopes that things may change. But when it comes to individuals like Trump, she knows what it feels like.

“The health care team listens to them, they feel intimidated, and that’s part of the VIP syndrome — they use their power,” says McIntosh. “They use it to exert pressure on the team and say, ‘This is what I want and no, I don’t want this.’ If they don’t want this X-ray, they won’t get it. If they want to get this discharged early, then they’re getting discharged early. They dictate their care.”

So people should listen to and trust their doctors, right?

But then there's this:

"A recent Johns Hopkins study claims more than 250,000 people in the U.S. die every year from medical errors. Other reports claim the numbers to be as high as 440,000.

Medical errors are the third-leading cause of death after heart disease and cancer."

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html






TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1705 on: October 07, 2020, 08:30:58 AM »
Quote
"A recent Johns Hopkins study claims more than 250,000 people in the U.S. die every year from medical errors. Other reports claim the numbers to be as high as 440,000.

Medical errors are the third-leading cause of death after heart disease and cancer."

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html

Except they aren't, and it is unfortunate that media outlets won't put this to bed.

Quote
Mark was referring to the use of the Institute for Healthcare Improvement’s Global Trigger Tool, which is arguably way too sensitive. Also, as I explained in my deconstruction of the Johns Hopkins paper, the authors conflated unavoidable complications with medical errors, didn’t consider very well whether the deaths were potentially preventable, and extrapolated from small numbers. Many of these studies also used administrative databases, which are primarily designed for insurance billing and thus not very good for other purposes.

NOPE

rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1706 on: October 07, 2020, 10:01:56 AM »
So apparently Trump is getting the VIP treatment with his care and that makes people upset.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/vip-syndrome-trump-discharge-walter-reed-expert-164959783.html

"Alfandre noted that while “VIP” may imply these individuals receive better treatment, many times it’s the opposite. “In spite of these perceived benefits, the quality of their care may be inferior because health care staff may be more likely to deviate from standard practices when caring for them.”

Reports about Trump’s care, which have come mostly from press briefings, suggest an atypical experience. On top of being released after three days in the hospital, while still in the midst of treatment, he’s reportedly received multiple experimental treatments — including the antiviral remdesivir, an unapproved monoclonal antibody therapy and a corticosteroid known as dexamethasone. The three are rarely (if ever) given together and are typically reserved for serious illness.

McIntosh says all of this aligns with VIP syndrome, which can lead to both too much and too little care...

... “We have an ethical code of conduct we have to follow whereby we’re told to respect patient autonomy, to treat everybody equal and not to differentiate care based on somebody’s race, gender or socioeconomic status,” says McIntosh. “So we’re being told really to practice unethically.” Currently teaching her students about the dangers of the syndrome, McIntosh hopes that things may change. But when it comes to individuals like Trump, she knows what it feels like.

“The health care team listens to them, they feel intimidated, and that’s part of the VIP syndrome — they use their power,” says McIntosh. “They use it to exert pressure on the team and say, ‘This is what I want and no, I don’t want this.’ If they don’t want this X-ray, they won’t get it. If they want to get this discharged early, then they’re getting discharged early. They dictate their care.”

So people should listen to and trust their doctors, right?

But then there's this:

"A recent Johns Hopkins study claims more than 250,000 people in the U.S. die every year from medical errors. Other reports claim the numbers to be as high as 440,000.

Medical errors are the third-leading cause of death after heart disease and cancer."

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html

I don't think its the VIP treatment that Trump gets, and should get, that people are upset about.

Its his inability to express empathy for the thousands that have suffered from covid and who don't have access to such care.
Pretty much it his arrogance, dismissing of any safety prototypical that endangered not just him, its all about him, and his non existing empathy the pisses so many people off. 

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1707 on: October 07, 2020, 10:39:44 AM »
And in fairness, the recovery time for a President is exceedingly important. Thus, I have no qualms about him receiving more aggressive treatment. I've also been dismayed at descriptions that he's "getting treatment no one else can get" which really isn't quite true. Everything Trump received has trial patients. It's a gamble for sure, there could be long term effects that no one can be sure of.

I think of it like professional athletes, who got treatments like arthroscopic surgery before the mainstream, or surgeries that no doctor in their right mind would perform on anyone but an elite athlete.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1708 on: October 07, 2020, 02:27:21 PM »
WS,

“No one should go near Trump for the next couple of weeks.  He's a carrier.  He's liable to infect everyone around.  I doubt Biden will get anywhere near Trump.  Unlike Trump, he's smart enough not to risk his life over some stupid macho desire to show how tough he is.

Calling him ‘Basement Biden’ just shows why he would be a better president than Trump.  He has a lot more common sense.”


I doubt that Biden will go anywhere near Trump too if he can find a justification.

What Trump’s motives might include could be, in part, machismo. His objectively primary focus has always been to keep the economy moving. Confidence is a primary element in that objective. Something that you may not understand is that poverty kills as surely as SARS-CoV-2. Most conservatives get it, and have all along.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1709 on: October 07, 2020, 02:29:58 PM »
Drake,

“And in fairness, the recovery time for a President is exceedingly important. Thus, I have no qualms about him receiving more aggressive treatment.”

Finally, we agree on something again. You are going to lose friends if you are not careful.

msquared

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1710 on: October 07, 2020, 02:32:29 PM »
If Trump had really wanted to keep the economy going he would have suggested and supported the wearing of masks since at least April, if not sooner. As it is he still flaunts masks suggestions, making the White House a hostile work place for those who wish to wear them.  HE could have been a leader. He was not.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1711 on: October 07, 2020, 05:06:32 PM »
Msquared,

“If Trump had really wanted to keep the economy going he would have suggested and supported the wearing of masks since at least April, if not sooner. As it is he still flaunts masks suggestions, making the White House a hostile work place for those who wish to wear them.  HE could have been a leader. He was not.“

This statement is imbecilic.

What most of you lefties have lost sight of is the original goal of “flattening the curve” to keep hospital beds open. That objective has been met, and exceeded, even following some histrionic demands from people like  Andrew Cuomo, who left a Trump-ordered hospital ship 90% vacant while sitting in New York Harbor to receive afflicted New Yorkers. Anyone who does not understand what animates Trump’s leadership style at this point just doesn’t want to know. The COVID-19 epidemic is as much an economic, as medical crisis, and his actions support that understanding.

yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1712 on: October 07, 2020, 05:30:16 PM »
...
Anyone who does not understand what animates Trump’s leadership style at this point just doesn’t want to know. The COVID-19 epidemic is as much an economic, as medical crisis, and his actions support that understanding.

Then why is he fighting with democrats for a smaller relief bill?

Wayward Son

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1713 on: October 07, 2020, 05:43:48 PM »
Quote
What most of you lefties have lost sight of is the original goal of “flattening the curve” to keep hospital beds open. That objective has been met, and exceeded, even following some histrionic demands from people like  Andrew Cuomo, who left a Trump-ordered hospital ship 90% vacant while sitting in New York Harbor to receive afflicted New Yorkers. Anyone who does not understand what animates Trump’s leadership style at this point just doesn’t want to know. The COVID-19 epidemic is as much an economic, as medical crisis, and his actions support that understanding.

What I do understand is:

1.  People do not want to go out and do business-as-usual because there is still a dangerous pandemic out there.  So no amount of cheerleading or macho posturing is going to affect the behavior of a large segment of the U.S. population while the pandemic still rages.  (Remember, people were isolating before state and local governments starting calling for a shut-down.)
2.  So the only way to get the economy back up to speed is to control this virus.
3.  On Monday, there were fewer new cases of Covid-19 in New Zealand, Viet Nam, Taiwan, Thailand, and Australia, combined, than there were in the White House alone.  (See 4:50 min. into the program.)

While you right-wingers think you can get the economy going if you just sacrifice your grandmother (or Herman Cain), the truth is you'll end up sacrificing both if you don't get Covid under control.

 

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1714 on: October 07, 2020, 06:19:42 PM »
...While you right-wingers think you can get the economy going if you just sacrifice your grandmother (or Herman Cain), the truth is you'll end up sacrificing both if you don't get Covid under control.

I don't follow President Trump's tweets very closely at all, and only see them when even the MSM make them an issue and link to them. Such occurred with his statement that he was declassifying much of Hillary's and Brennan's correspondence which fingered Obama, personally, and the Democrat Intel elites that went along with the coup.

What interested me to no end, was reading the comments. Most GOP were civil and focused on what the issue means - but the comments from Democrats were frightening. No mention of the issue at all. Just insults to President Trump's looks and non-sequitur attacks, repeating fake news and poorly contrived Photoshop images.

I doubt anyone in this forum would descend to the level of attack, but the attacks here are just as incessant.

Radcliff sent over a thousand pages of unredacted incriminating converstaions that cannot be refuted.

The difference between the parties is the reason why the polls are as as slanted as they are. I don't know any conservatives or party GOP who are not afraid to put a sign in their front yard, fearing vandalism and also don't give any info to pollsters. It is a one-way bullying. Why are all the sick people on the Left?

Wayward Son

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1715 on: October 07, 2020, 07:01:11 PM »
1.  I don't see how the line you quoted from me relates to Radcliff's pages.  Did you cut the right quote?  ???

2.  Hey, sacrificing old people isn't a left-wing talking point.  I've heard it from at least one right-wing pundit.  So don't blame the messenger. :)

3.  If you think the only irrational insults come from the left-wing, you ain't been around, man!  Who was that Fox newswoman who wasn't sufficiently right-wing, and someone photoshopped a picture of her daughter being gassed in a gas chamber?  ::)  If that ain't sick, I don't know what is.  The Right has more than enough sickies to counterbalance those on the Left.

msquared

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1716 on: October 07, 2020, 07:17:15 PM »
noel c

Until 2016 I had never voted for a Democrat at a national level. This is dating from 1984. So you know nothing about me. To call me a leftie shows your ignorance. What I am is a principled conservative Republican who is horrified with what Trump and the leaders of the party have allowed the party to move to.  My 70 year old CPA uncle from Kansas feels the same way. He is agast at the fiscal irresponsibility of Trump with his tax cuts and blowing up the deficit. As Catholic Christians, we are both ashamed with how he has treated even illegal immigrants, as well as other immigrants. We are appalled at his treatment of others, since Jesus taught us to turn the other cheek. We are scandalized by his lies and half truths. We have not left the party. The Party has left us and followed a false prophet named Trump.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1717 on: October 07, 2020, 07:27:31 PM »
Y-22,

“Then why is he fighting with democrats for a smaller relief bill?”

I think that is the wrong question. Better to ask; what kind of relief incentivizes a return to productivity, and how much needs to be spent to accomplish that objective? If you cannot answer those two questions, then there cannot be a meaningful conversation.

Tell me what Pelosi and Schumer want to add that makes sense to you under the two above criteria... unless you believe the objective is wrong.

WS,

“What I do understand is:
1.  People do not want to go out and do business-as-usual because there is still a dangerous pandemic out there.  So no amount of cheerleading or macho posturing is going to affect the behavior of a large segment of the U.S. population while the pandemic still rages.  (Remember, people were isolating before state and local governments starting calling for a shut-down.)“


Let me guess, you have never been self-employed?

“2.  So the only way to get the economy back up to speed is to control this virus.“

Is this statement supposed to be contingent upon #1?

“3.  On Monday, there were fewer new cases of Covid-19 in New Zealand, Viet Nam, Taiwan, Thailand, and Australia, combined, than there were in the White House alone.  (See 4:50 min. into the program.)“

What program are you talking about?

“While you right-wingers think you can get the economy going if you just sacrifice your grandmother (or Herman Cain), the truth is you'll end up sacrificing both if you don't get Covid under control.”

If we begin to experience a shortage of hospital beds, then dumb statements like that could at least pass as black humor. However, the last part is interesting. I’ll bite; how does WS propose to “get COVID under control”? Please be specific, and be prepared to support your premises.



noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1718 on: October 07, 2020, 07:58:45 PM »
Msquared,

“noel c, Until 2016 I had never voted for a Democrat at a national level. This is dating from 1984. So you know nothing about me. To call me a leftie shows your ignorance. What I am is a principled conservative Republican who is horrified with what Trump and the leaders of the party have allowed the party to move to.  My 70 year old CPA uncle from Kansas feels the same way. He is agast at the fiscal irresponsibility of Trump with his tax cuts and blowing up the deficit.”

Do you agree with the last “stimulus“ package?

“As Catholic Christians, we are both ashamed with how he has treated even illegal immigrants, as well as other immigrants.“

Even if I agreed with you, which I do not, is this supposed to be relevant to the discussion, or are you just virtue signaling?

“We are appalled at his treatment of others, since Jesus taught us to turn the other cheek.“

Luke 6:29 does not mean what you think it does, and it is typically Catholic to be light on scriptural literacy. That said, Raymond Brown is one of my favorite theologians. In fairness, Trump is also embarrassingly clueless. I shuddered at his “two Corinthians” reference in January of 2016, but I do not look to him as my spiritual guide. He is a politician. Conversely, Jesus Christ could not function effectively as president of the United States. I wish it was not so.

“We are scandalized by his lies and half truths. We have not left the party. The Party has left us and followed a false prophet named Trump.“

Umm, Trump is basically “our Democrat”. He was far down on my primary choices for a lot of the reasons that you give, but if you are looking for ethical purity, you should have voted for Ben Carson, did you? He was third on my list of primary preferences, and missed the first two spots primarily because I knew that he could not govern. Do you remember who he endorsed upon withdrawing from the race, and why?

msquared

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1719 on: October 07, 2020, 08:07:48 PM »
I agreed with the stimulus package for Covid relief. Not for the huge tax cut for the wealthy. If he had not balloned the deficit earlier, we would have had more room for what was done in March.

I am not virtue signaling.  I am saying that Trump is not a Christian but claims to be to get their support.

Of course you are right, Catholic's do not take the Bible literally all the time, especially the Old Testament.  Trump uses the Bible when it suits him.

My primary choice in 2016 was Kasich, who has been a critic of Trump the entire time.

My religion is not my only guiding light on politics, but it is a filter. And when I see some one claiming to proclaim Christian values and then does almost nothing (with one major exception) to support them and often times goes against that Christian teaching, I see him as a hypocrit at best and at worst a liar using the gullible.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1720 on: October 07, 2020, 08:36:32 PM »
Msquared,

“I agreed with the stimulus package for Covid relief. Not for the huge tax cut for the wealthy. If he had not balloned the deficit earlier, we would have had more room for what was done in March.“

I had a high degree of confidence that you did. If you can support that, and go to pieces over his revenue deficits prior to COVID, might I suggest that you are choking on a gnat, and swallowing a camel?

“I am not virtue signaling.  I am saying that Trump is not a Christian but claims to be to get their support.“

Any informed Christian knows that Trump is, at best, a novice when it comes to religious sensibilities.

“Of course you are right, Catholic's do not take the Bible literally all the time, especially the Old Testament. Trump uses the Bible when it suits him.”

I am actually saying something slightly different. The typical evangelical is heads-and-shoulders above the typical Catholic in relation to both scriptural literacy, and theological understanding. Nonetheless, it was an evangelical audience that listened to his disastrous 2016 address, and overlooked his awkward mistakes.

Ask yourself; Why?

“My primary choice in 2016 was Kasich, who has been a critic of Trump the entire time.”

Is that what recommended Kasich to you, his anti-trumpism? I really liked Kasich at one time. Then he developed a left-leaning messiah complex.

“My religion is not my only guiding light on politics, but it is a filter. And when I see some one claiming to proclaim Christian values and then does almost nothing (with one major exception) to support them and often times goes against that Christian teaching, I see him as a hypocrit at best and at worst a liar using the gullible.“

I think we differ on a pragmatic assessment of politics. Nobody that I know personally, who supports Trump, is unaware of his foibles. They, and I, support him because the left has molded him into a perfect antithesis of their agenda. He can not help himself. My initial apprehension stemming from his election was that he would immediately start “making deals”, as he prides himself in that regard. He almost did until Pelosi, and Schumer, screwed themselves.

« Last Edit: October 07, 2020, 08:44:47 PM by noel c. »

cherrypoptart

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1721 on: October 07, 2020, 08:41:57 PM »
Are tax cuts to the wealthy the important thing though when revenues to the Treasury increase every year?

If tax cuts to the wealthy resulted in a drop in revenues then yeah I could see that being a huge problem but when the revenues go up even with the tax cuts, and some would argue they go up precisely because of the tax cuts and actually might, counter-intuitive as it is, go down with tax increases, doesn't that indicate the problem is not the tax cuts but instead it's the spending?

No matter how much more money the government takes in from taxes, they blow it all and then some. In fact, it looks like when they take in a little more they spend a lot more. Like someone who gets a $1000 a year raise on their salary and so gets a bunch of new credit cards and racks up another $25,000 in debt.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1722 on: October 07, 2020, 08:53:40 PM »
Cherry,

“Are tax cuts to the wealthy the important thing though when revenues to the Treasury increase every year?”

Properly targeted tax cuts do increase revenue. JFK knew that, and Trump seems to as well.

“If tax cuts to the wealthy resulted in a drop in revenues then yeah I could see that being a huge problem but when the revenues go up even with the tax cuts, and some would argue they go up precisely because of the tax cuts and actually might, counter-intuitive as it is, go down with tax increases, doesn't that indicate the problem is not the tax cuts but instead it's the spending?”

That is Arthur Laffers thesis in a nutshell. Reagan was a great fan.

“No matter how much more money the government takes in from taxes, they blow it all and then some. In fact, it looks like when they take in a little more they spend a lot more. Like someone who gets a $1000 a year raise on their salary and so gets a bunch of new credit cards and racks up another $25,000 in debt.“

If you could extend Treasury credit with a vote, most would do what Congress does. COVID spending dispensed with even the pretense of economic responsibility.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1723 on: October 07, 2020, 10:13:02 PM »
Federal tax revenue annual increases as a function of population:
2014-2015: %6.396
2015-2016: -%0.103
2016-2017: %0.883
2017-2018: -%0.222
2018-2019: %3.300

The largest revenue increase was in 2015.  During Trump's term, there was 1 year with ~1% increase, one year with a nominal decrease in tax revenues collected, and one year with an increase of 3.3%.  This is not actually a trend.

There are all sorts of reasons why the Laffer curve is  not predictive, even if you knew what side of the curve you should be on - it is a complete over-simplification.

cherrypoptart

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1724 on: October 07, 2020, 10:45:28 PM »
That's one way to look at it. Another is that revenue has gone up every year under Trump.

https://www.thebalance.com/current-u-s-federal-government-tax-revenue-3305762

Fiscal Year   Revenue
FY 2021   $3.86 (estimated)
FY 2020   $3.71 trillion (estimated)
FY 2019   $3.46 trillion (actual)
FY 2018   $3.33 trillion
FY 2017   $3.32 trillion
FY 2016   $3.27 trillion

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1725 on: October 07, 2020, 11:03:53 PM »
That's one way to look at it. Another is that revenue has gone up every year under Trump.

https://www.thebalance.com/current-u-s-federal-government-tax-revenue-3305762

Fiscal Year   Revenue
FY 2021   $3.86 (estimated)
FY 2020   $3.71 trillion (estimated)
FY 2019   $3.46 trillion (actual)
FY 2018   $3.33 trillion
FY 2017   $3.32 trillion
FY 2016   $3.27 trillion

Sure, but if you ignore the coincident increases in population, your comparison becomes meaningless.

In 2018, the federal government took in less revenue, on a person by person basis, than it did in 2017.  That does not support the argument that lower taxes lead to higher revenues.

yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1726 on: October 07, 2020, 11:13:47 PM »
And ignores inflation. “Flat” revenues would increase at around 2%.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1727 on: October 08, 2020, 09:55:54 AM »
Quote
“And that’s okay, I expected it at some point. I’ve gotta get out there, be a leader. You know, Winston Churchill didn’t sit in his basement for six months,” Trump said, likening himself to the British war-time prime minister.

Urm.

Quote
Churchill made four speeches from his underground bedroom in the Cabinet War Rooms.

Churchill underground bunker

LetterRip

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1728 on: October 08, 2020, 10:13:52 AM »
We've done almost 8 trillion in increased deficit during Trump.

So unless tax revenues have cumulatively increased by that much over the same period the discussion is pointless. 

It is like calculating your income by taking your salary and adding your credit card spending and other loans and claiming you've had income growth because of how much you've charged to your credit card and borrowed from the bank.

Wayward Son

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1729 on: October 08, 2020, 10:33:43 AM »
"This monster that was on stage with Mike Pence, who destroyed her last night by the way, but this monster, she says no no there won’t be fracking, everything she said is a lie." - President of the United States Donald J. Trump, referring to VP candidate Kamala Harris, on Fox Business, this morning.

In case anyone objects to me referring to him as General Bonespurs.  He has no qualms, common sense or decency.  He deserves all the contempt we can muster.  It's time to remove this embarrassment from the White House and show the world what this country really stands for.  Not this bully with no self-control.

So, who has no shame and would like to defend Trump's remarks?  ;D

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1730 on: October 08, 2020, 10:43:26 AM »
That's "Cadet" Bonespurs.  "Cadet"

And it was probably all he could do not to observe that she was "bleeding out of her... whatever".

Wayward Son

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1731 on: October 08, 2020, 10:47:06 AM »
WS,

“What I do understand is:
1.  People do not want to go out and do business-as-usual because there is still a dangerous pandemic out there.  So no amount of cheerleading or macho posturing is going to affect the behavior of a large segment of the U.S. population while the pandemic still rages.  (Remember, people were isolating before state and local governments starting calling for a shut-down.)“


Let me guess, you have never been self-employed?

What does that have to do with the fact that retail sales were dropping before shut-down orders were given?  What does that have to do with the fact that people won't just start acting like everything is normal because some blow-hard in the White House assures them that everything is OK?  Do you think people are that stupid??

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“2.  So the only way to get the economy back up to speed is to control this virus.“

Is this statement supposed to be contingent upon #1?

It logically follows.

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“3.  On Monday, there were fewer new cases of Covid-19 in New Zealand, Viet Nam, Taiwan, Thailand, and Australia, combined, than there were in the White House alone.  (See 4:50 min. into the program.)“

What program are you talking about?

The one I linked to.

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“While you right-wingers think you can get the economy going if you just sacrifice your grandmother (or Herman Cain), the truth is you'll end up sacrificing both if you don't get Covid under control.”

If we begin to experience a shortage of hospital beds, then dumb statements like that could at least pass as black humor. However, the last part is interesting. I’ll bite; how does WS propose to “get COVID under control”? Please be specific, and be prepared to support your premises.

I suggest we follow the way countries like Australia have controlled the pandemic.  A strict, nation-wide lockdown for a month.  No longer tolerate the bogus "we have a Constitutional right not to wear masks" BS.  Essential service personnel follow strict safety protocols.  Get the spread of this disease under control as much as we can.  Then ease up restrictions as the science dictates.

Then energetic contact tracing.  Find out from whom people got the virus and who they possibly gave it to.  Put those people in quarantine.  Make sure the pockets that are left don't take off again.  Then we'll be like Australia and Taiwan, where there are hardly any cases.

Once we've reached that, people will flock to the streets and resume their lives.  Because it would be safe.  The desire for personal safety is what has shut down the economy.  Bring that back, and we can start the economic recovery in earnest.

Don't, and we won't.

Wayward Son

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1732 on: October 08, 2020, 10:48:07 AM »
That's "Cadet" Bonespurs.  "Cadet"

And it was probably all he could do not to observe that she was "bleeding out of her... whatever".

You think Trump would settle for anything less than "General?"  As far as he's concerned, he's the one and only twenty-star General of the U.S.A. :)

cherrypoptart

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1733 on: October 08, 2020, 11:05:53 AM »
"Once we've reached that, people will flock to the streets and resume their lives.  Because it would be safe.  The desire for personal safety is what has shut down the economy.  Bring that back, and we can start the economic recovery in earnest."

What worked for them will not work for us because of one crucial difference. We have a wide open border with nearly a hundred thousand people illegally crossing it every month without so much as a forehead scan temperature check.

And I haven't seen a single Democrat yet suggesting anything other than opening up the border to illegals even more.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1734 on: October 08, 2020, 11:15:38 AM »
That's definitely a risk, although since Mexico has an infection rate only 1/3 that of the USA (and dropping, currently), your country has a ways to go before immigration is going to become a significant factor in case increases.

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1735 on: October 08, 2020, 12:48:31 PM »
...In case anyone objects to me referring to him as General Bonespurs.  He has no qualms, common sense or decency.  He deserves all the contempt we can muster.  It's time to remove this embarrassment from the White House and show the world what this country really stands for.  Not this bully with no self-control.

Just to point out that you impugn a good man, by believing all the spin and fake news. Here's a man who loves his country, and has put more effort into helping the lives and families of military, in service or in the VA, so much more than any other President ever. Yet some think tank or focus group decided to gen up a negative story, repudiated by everyone who was there, that he called our hallowed dead, "losers" and "suckers."

You appear, yourself, to have "no qualms, common sense or decency" when impugning anything he says or does. You did not do that with Clinton. You did not do that with Obama. ...And Lord knows, they were far more egregious than Trump.

Wayward Son

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1736 on: October 08, 2020, 03:44:13 PM »
And Lord knows, they were far more egregious than Trump.

Well, General Bonespurs is mainly to point out how this patriotic American got out of going to fight in Viet Nam by having a doctor say he had bone spurs--something that every veteran greatly admires him for.  ::)

And need I, a Liberal, have to explain again to you, a supposed Conservative, why a captured soldier should be considered a war hero, regardless of his performance as a soldier nor what he said about Trump supporters?  ;D  (This is what Trump has done to the Republican party.  It is now the official platform of Republicans that McCain was not a war hero!  ::) )

But my main point was really that Trump has given me license to call him whatever I want.  Because he calls his opponents anything he wants, even "a monster."  :o  Which is something that neither Clinton nor especially Obama ever indulged in.  So in that respect, neither of them were "far more egregious than Trump" by any stretch of the imagination.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1737 on: October 08, 2020, 04:31:23 PM »
I think you misunderestimate the imaginative stretches of which wmLambert is capable...

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1738 on: October 08, 2020, 05:05:43 PM »
From the NY Times:

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“It’s not a heavy steroid,” Mr. Trump said of the heavy steroid he’s been taking, dexamethasone.

 ;D  ;D  ;D

Lloyd Perna

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1739 on: October 08, 2020, 05:20:04 PM »
They didn't just hand out medical deferments for no reason during the Vietnam draft.  He would have received an exam from Military Doctors and been allowed to present documentation of medical concerns from a private physician.  But, ultimately the Military Doctors and the Local Draft board would have to have been convinced.   I believe Biden also received a bunch of deferments for Asthma, I don't see you making up pejorative nicknames about him.

As a military veteran myself,  Though I'm too young to have served in Vietnam, I hold ill will towards anybody that was able to convince the bureaucracy they shouldn't be drafted.

Wayward Son

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1740 on: October 08, 2020, 05:24:41 PM »
So why didn't Trump mention his bone spurs when he was walking down that ramp so slowly?  In fact, why don't we hear about his bone spurs in his medical reports?

AFAIK, bone spurs don't go away.  You have them for life.  Did he misplace his?  :D

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1741 on: October 08, 2020, 05:44:02 PM »
Just in case you missed this, Lloyd

I think you are lying when you accuse the doctor of lying.

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REPORTER: Can we please [inaudible] one thing. Has he ever been on supplemental oxygen?

CONLEY: He, right now he is not on oxygen.

REPORTER: I understand, I know you keep saying right now, but should we read into the fact that he had been previously?

CONLEY: Yesterday and today he was not on oxygen

https://www.npr.org/2020/10/03/919894816/transcript-presidents-trumps-doctors-provide-saturday-update-on-his-health

So on Saturday the doctor said he wasn't on oxygen yesterday (which was Friday). Which we now know Trump did receive oxygen on Friday.

I get this isn't an earth shattering lie. But it is clearly a lie that served no purpose other than to make it seem like Trump was doing better than he actually was.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1742 on: October 08, 2020, 05:52:11 PM »
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Unless Bill Barr indicts these people for crimes, the greatest political crime in the history of our country, then we're going to get little satisfaction unless I win and we'll just have to go, because I won't forget it.

...

But, it's still not that easy, you have a 'deep state,' you have a group of people that don't want to have documents shown, which tells you bad thing, you know, but they -- they have to give them ultimately and we're getting them, you know.

So, Trump is, what, commanding his AG to prosecute people for their involvement in the FBI counterintelligence operation against Russian interference in the 2016 election? And, what, Barr, his own appointee, is also a member of the "deep state" apparatus?

This man is deeply troubled.  Where is his family? 

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1743 on: October 08, 2020, 06:19:56 PM »
They didn't just hand out medical deferments for no reason during the Vietnam draft.  He would have received an exam from Military Doctors and been allowed to present documentation of medical concerns from a private physician.  But, ultimately the Military Doctors and the Local Draft board would have to have been convinced.   I believe Biden also received a bunch of deferments for Asthma, I don't see you making up pejorative nicknames about him.

As a military veteran myself,  Though I'm too young to have served in Vietnam, I hold ill will towards anybody that was able to convince the bureaucracy they shouldn't be drafted.

You need to research this a little more. There's significant evidence that a podiatrist who rented space in a Trump building (Dad's) was the one who provided the medical documentation. Including testimony from the doctor's family.

I also didn't hold it against Clinton, Biden, Trump and others when they got student deferments - or when GWB joined the national guard and may or may not have showed up.

None of that makes a lick of difference to me, I consider any draft to be immoral and tantamount to slavery.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1744 on: October 08, 2020, 06:34:15 PM »
Trump, in total reversal, is telling allies he is, in fact, interested in a broad stimulus deal

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Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin, in a call with Speaker Nancy Pelosi on Thursday, said Trump was now interested in coming back to the table on a comprehensive agreement, according to Drew Hammill, Pelosi's deputy chief of staff. But even that was called into question by Pelosi on the call, who noted that another White House official had just earlier Thursday afternoon "contradicted that assertion." But Mnuchin assured the California Democrat the President was interested in a comprehensive deal and Pelosi, on a call with her leadership team later in the afternoon, said she believed the talks were back on, according to a source familiar with the call.

It's hard to tell whether this is just Trump's normal 1-dimensional game of chess, or whether the drugs are really doing a number on him.  Regardless, his current flakiness is removing any confidence the markets, investors and the general public still had in him.

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1745 on: October 08, 2020, 10:19:35 PM »
...It's hard to tell whether this is just Trump's normal 1-dimensional game of chess, or whether the drugs are really doing a number on him.  Regardless, his current flakiness is removing any confidence the markets, investors and the general public still had in him.

...Says the guy who loses to Trump with Fool's Mate in two moves. I wonder how any Democrat genius President could have done with the entire MSM on the other side, and the Obama Justice Department and CIA trying to overthrow him with a Coup. In spite of them all, he continues to win.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1746 on: October 08, 2020, 10:26:28 PM »
Trump is sooooo smart.  He tweets himself into trouble overnight, is then explained how he just threw away any remaining chance at reelection, so pretends he meant the opposite of what he said just 12 hours earlier, (expecting, as always, that nobody will notice)

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1747 on: October 08, 2020, 10:31:21 PM »
Trump is sooooo smart.  He tweets himself into trouble overnight, is then explained how he just threw away any remaining chance at reelection, so pretends he meant the opposite of what he said just 12 hours earlier, (expecting, as always, that nobody will notice)

Still posing as a genius, when Trump continues to tweak the MSM into following whatever he says? He's done it for four years, and he still wins. If you were smarter, you would re-evaluate what you think about this now, in a few days.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1748 on: October 08, 2020, 11:38:43 PM »
WS,

Your “show” (link) figures are garbage.

“I suggest we follow the way countries like Australia have controlled the pandemic.  A strict, nation-wide lockdown for a month. No longer tolerate the bogus ‘we have a Constitutional right not to wear masks’ BS.  Essential service personnel follow strict safety protocols. Get the spread of this disease under control as much as we can. Then ease up restrictions as the science dictates.“

Australia’s economy has contracted by 7%, the worst in 30 years. “They have ‘recovered’ to now being just slightly worse than it ever was during the longest recession of the post-second world war era.“

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/22/recent-australian-unemployment-rates-didnt-seem-to-make-sense-heres-what-is-going-on

This will cost lives entirely unrelated to COVID-19.

”Then energetic contact tracing. Find out from whom people got the virus and who they possibly gave it to.  Put those people in quarantine.  Make sure the pockets that are left don't take off again. Then we'll be like Australia and Taiwan, where there are hardly any cases.”

Taiwan is a different story. Their economy is largely unaffected by the COVID spread. Had China not excluded it from the WHO, we might have been aware of a 2003 plan that the Taiwanese government put into place as a response to the SARS outbreak (including mask stockpiles).

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4008495

“During an interview with Fareed Zakaria on CNN on Sunday (Sept. 13), former Taiwanese Vice President Chen Chien-jen said that strict quarantines meant no major lockdown was required and businesses were able to stay open. Chien emphasized that although 250,000 people had to sacrifice 14 days of their time, it assured that 23 million could ‘work normally and live normally,’ thus reducing the economic decline in Taiwan.

What they mean by “strict quarantine” was house arrest, at thé inmate’s own expense, with potential for a government “stipend” in instances where public accommodations were used. The difference seems to be cultural. In short, Australia solution was the economic equivalent of chemotherapy, and they are still not out of the woods. Taiwan’s plan was effective, but irreproducible in any western nation.

Your “scientific” solution is fantasy informed by ex post facto pontification. The option left to the United States is herd immunity in conjunction with a vaccine that must be at least 75% effective according to a 237-page report from the National Academy of Medicine, published October 2. Alternatively, we could go through the same process of viral mutation that rendered the 1918 H1N1 influenza A virus into our present seasonal flu.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/api.nationalgeographic.com/distribution/public/amp/science/2020/10/natural-herd-immunity-mentality-cannot-stop-coronavirus-weak-vaccine-cvd

Surgical masks are fine for catching large respiratory droplets ejected from the mouth, or nose, but I doubt anyone on this board is wearing a mask that actually protects from SARS-COVID-2 infection. The hysteria is political bed-wetting.

What are you wearing WS?
« Last Edit: October 08, 2020, 11:47:58 PM by noel c. »

yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1749 on: October 09, 2020, 09:36:39 AM »
Surgical masks are fine for catching large respiratory droplets ejected from the mouth, or nose, but I doubt anyone on this board is wearing a mask that actually protects from SARS-COVID-2 infection. The hysteria is political bed-wetting.

There is a reason that everyone should wear a mask.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32371934/
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We identified seasonal human coronaviruses, influenza viruses and rhinoviruses in exhaled breath and coughs of children and adults with acute respiratory illness. Surgical face masks significantly reduced detection of influenza virus RNA in respiratory droplets and coronavirus RNA in aerosols, with a trend toward reduced detection of coronavirus RNA in respiratory droplets. Our results indicate that surgical face masks could prevent transmission of human coronaviruses and influenza viruses from symptomatic individuals.

We all understand that a cloth mask doesn't filter out things virus size. However people wearing masks don't spread their droplets and aerosols as widely and they will spread less of them.

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent

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A recent study published in Health Affairs, for example, compared the COVID-19 growth rate before and after mask mandates in 15 states and the District of Columbia. It found that mask mandates led to a slowdown in daily COVID-19 growth rate, which became more apparent over time.
...
Two compelling case reports also suggest that masks can prevent transmission in high-risk scenarios, said Chin-Hong and Rutherford. In one case, a man flew from China to Toronto and subsequently tested positive for COVID-19. He had a dry cough and wore a mask on the flight, and all 25 people closest to him on the flight tested negative for COVID-19. In another case, in late May, two hair stylists in Missouri had close contact with 140 clients while sick with COVID-19. Everyone wore a mask and none of the clients tested positive.
...
“The concept is risk reduction rather than absolute prevention,” said Chin-Hong. “You don’t throw up your hands if you think a mask is not 100 percent effective. That’s silly. Nobody’s taking a cholesterol medicine because they’re going to prevent a heart attack 100 percent of the time, but you’re reducing your risk substantially.”