Why do democrats embrace an ideology of hate and violence?

[Fenring]

Whenever I leave, however, the quality of writing and argumentation degrades horribly. 

 

[Fenring]

I'm not so sure what's echo-chamberish on Ornery for the most part. I think there are some issues we agree on more than others. Some groupings of posters tend to converge on one side of the political fence or another if it's a right/left topic, but it's always been that way here. As far as persecution complex goes, I actually do think we're entering into a new age of the American people persecuting each other, very literally. I don't just mean giving flack, but rather trying to stamp out a way of life. As Grant mentioned, this isn't an Ornery thing, and what's nice here is no one seems to try to suggest that the other side's position is unacceptable. I also think that learning to tolerate (rigid) disagreement is an important life skill.

That being said it can also be frustrating to feel like the other person in the discussion is impenetrable to reason and already believes they know everything worth knowing. But this too seems to me an artifact of a culture where losing the social game means your side losing the political game, which is money and power. It trickles down to the bottom where admitting the other side may have a point can legitimately lead to losing political momentum for your causes. It's a problem.

[Seriati]

Well I think it's really a derivative of no longer agreeing on common facts.  It's one thing to argue what a percentage change  in some statistic means and whether it's a result of policy x or in spite of policy x.  The "debates" now are literally about disputing that the other sides facts.  Its the ultimate in appeals to authority, where both sides package convenient "authorities" with less respect for truth and more for outcome.

For example, I find it frustrating that no matter how many of the "Trump lies" from the Washington Post list are shown to not be lies, the list keeps getting referred to as a fact.  I find myself disputing statements not because they are something the poster actually cares to argue as substance, but because they want to engage in a poisoning the well fallacy for some other claim.

Or one could look at the impeachment.  Schiff literally stated the evidence was clear, and it seems at least some believe he was accurate in that statement, yet I see nothing but an inference that is largely seeing what one wants to see.  The only actual facts don't show it, yet we still see people literally write out that Trump "admitted" it.  Not one witness - zero - testified to the 2020 election interference claim, yet that too is assumed. 

Or how about this one - the IG report on FISA abuse found that the abuse was so endemic that it had to have been unbelievable incompetence or bias, but found no written admission of bias.  That has now become "found no bias" as a short hand even on Fox.  The facts say one thing, the "story" now says something else.  How do we make conclusions about justice or fairness when people won't even agree about what happened?

[TheDeamon]

I love that the reaction to "make sure the person you're punching is really a Nazi" is "you're going to label everyone you dislike a Nazi." Especially from someone who seems to be okay with invading a country and then calling anyone who resists a terrorist.

You're getting lost in the weeds on some of this by playing definition games.

The French Resistance in WW2 was to some engaged in acts of terrorism, at least if you asked a German, most people being objective about it would also have to agree that some Resistance attacks were in essence Terror attacks. Bombing a night club frequented by Nazis? Totally legit, right? Not at all comparable to Muslims local to an area deciding to bomb a nightclub that caters to decadent westerners in Indonesia...

 But that isn't to say everything the Resistance did was terrorism, very far from it.

Al-Qaeda in Iraq on the other hand? ISIS/ISIL? They were there for the terrorism and the recruiting potential. They didn't give a bleep about the welfare of the people living in Iraq.

Did they potentially recruit members who fought with them solely because they were some of the few capable of doing damage to the occupiers? Sure, but that doesn't make them anything close to a resistance effort as most would frame it.

[Pete at Home]

Targeting Uniformed soldiers? Arguably not terrorism.  Hell, man, that takes out actual occupiers with guns from your streets. I say not terrorism period.   Your middle eastern example is more like the Pulse nightclub shooting.

But the resistance also targeted homes of non-combatant collaborators which was terrorism unambiguously.

[TheDeamon]

I guess this gets an honorable mention, as points out that "White Privilege" is frequently nonsense, and helps incite anger.

https://www.facebook.com/prageru/videos/199570214549098/

[Crunch]

The Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office arrested Gregory William Loel Timm, 27, after being identified as the person behind the wheel of a van that drove through a tent in a Walmart parking lot Saturday, where Republican volunteers were registering people to vote.

According to Lt. Larry Gayle, the vehicle attack happened about 3:50 p.m. at Atlantic and Kernan boulevards where members of the Republican Party were in the tent registering voters. Timm is accused of pulling up, driving through the tent and striking their table.

“It happened so quickly,” said Nina Williams, a volunteer. “I just barely got out of the way.”

Lt. Gayle said at some point after, Timm stopped, took a video and “flipped off” the people who were inside the tent before driving away. Investigators are monitoring social media to see if the video shows up.

No injuries so better luck next time I suppose.

[Crunch]

A 34-year-old man was arrested in New Hampshire on Thursday after he attacked a 15-year-old Trump supporter who was wearing a “Make America Great Again” hat and two other adults at a polling site earlier this week.

“Police said the incident happened Tuesday as Bradley exited the voting location inside the high school and was walking by a Trump campaign tent occupied by several supporters,” Fox News reported. “As he passed by the tent, police said, Bradley slapped a 15-year old juvenile across the face and then assaulted two other adults who attempted to intercede.”

The Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office said that the suspect allegedly committed the attack because he said that  “someone had to take a stand.”

Related:

Peaceful Florida citizens holding Trump signs were minding their own business in Dunnellon, Fla., last Thursday when a man rushed at them with a cane sword.

Police arrested 49-year-old James L. Whitehurst II and charged him with 10 counts of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon and one count of disorderly conduct, the Ocala Star Banner reported.

Victims reportedly told police that Whitehurst had approached them during their peaceful assembly with what was described as a cane sword. The assailant allegedly pointed the sword in their faces and made threatening statements, holding the blade 6 inches from their faces.

At some point, Trump supporters will respond in kind. It’s only a matter of time. I am certain you guys will insist it was totally unjustified.

[TheDrake]

Anecdotes are fun.

The FBI in Maryland arrested a Marine veteran and U.S. Coast Guard lieutenant, Christopher Paul Hasson, who they said was stockpiling weapons and "espoused" racist and anti-immigrant views for years as he sought to "murder innocent civilians on a scale rarely seen in this country." In court documents, prosecutors said the 49-year-old "domestic terrorist" compiled a "hit list" of prominent Democrats.

[Seriati]

Anecdotes are fun.

The FBI in Maryland arrested a Marine veteran and U.S. Coast Guard lieutenant, Christopher Paul Hasson, who they said was stockpiling weapons and "espoused" racist and anti-immigrant views for years as he sought to "murder innocent civilians on a scale rarely seen in this country." In court documents, prosecutors said the 49-year-old "domestic terrorist" compiled a "hit list" of prominent Democrats.

Not sure that qualifies as an anecdote, or that  it's even relevant.  Here's the Wiki, and I'd never heard of the guy.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Paul_Hasson

What's interesting to me is what's missing from this story, versus what's present in Crunch's (actual acts of violence).  Take a look, this guy was apparently addicted to opiods, and that's what they jailed him for, illegal possession of Tramadol.  Because he was illegally addicted to drugs it was illegal for him to own fire arms, so they added a charge for that. The final charge was for possession of unlicensed silencers.  It looks like he was being closely monitored by the Feds because he was a white nationalist.

Nothing about an actual plot or violent act in his conviction.  Don't get me wrong, as you can see in the Wiki, the guy sounds stone cold crazy and while it may have led to nothing, his arrest may have stopped a big attack. 

But the equivalent would be if the government arrested one of these left wingers BEFORE they committed their violent crimes, simply because they were connected to say antifa, and then threw them in jail for any unrelated crimes they could pin on them, and then after they jailed them for say - digital music piracy - released tons of things about their plots to harm Republicans. No way that flies.

In fact, if you really look at the Wiki, what's striking is how the charge pattern is very similar to what prosecutors do to minorities, where they use largely pretextual crimes to go after them because they can't prove some other crime they think warrants it.  Looks like if you've used an illegal drug your otherwise legal gun is automatically illegal.

[Crunch]

Anecdotes are fun.

The FBI in Maryland arrested a Marine veteran and U.S. Coast Guard lieutenant, Christopher Paul Hasson, who they said was stockpiling weapons and "espoused" racist and anti-immigrant views for years as he sought to "murder innocent civilians on a scale rarely seen in this country." In court documents, prosecutors said the 49-year-old "domestic terrorist" compiled a "hit list" of prominent Democrats.

So are false equivalencies, apparently

[TheDrake]

The point is that extrapolating from a few crazies to characterize millions of people is not particularly meaningful.

[Seriati]

Was that really your point though? We extrapolate all the time and in politics it's almost the rule.

Crunch's point was pretty direct.  There is an increasing amount of left on right political violence and it's not condemned with anywhere near the force that right on left violence is condemned.  And if the right responds the story will be that the right started the violence.

How does your example of a crazy guy that was arrested before he committed an act of violence relate?

[TheDrake]

A crazy guy in NH punched a trump supporter. How does that prove anything? Do you really need national political figures to denounce him?

How much is it increasing? How does it compare? Is it just getting more visible? If Obama has issued a trademark hat would we have seen this too?

[Crunch]

The point is that extrapolating from a few crazies to characterize millions of people is not particularly meaningful.

How many do you need? What’s the magic number?

The left has an entire organization dedicated to assaulting the right. But it’s always “anecdotal “.

[TheDrake]

The point is that extrapolating from a few crazies to characterize millions of people is not particularly meaningful.

How many do you need? What’s the magic number?

The left has an entire organization dedicated to assaulting the right. But it’s always “anecdotal “.

Antifa again. Got it. They are representative of the left.

The Irish had the terrorist Ira, that's big boy violence. It doesn't mean that Sinn Fein stood only for violence, though there was surely overlap. And high ranking officials in both.

It definitely didn't mean that the entire Irish left wing could be portrayed as supporting Ira.

You want to start a thread saying Antifa is growing violence, I'll denounce them right along with you. They are indeed a serious threat that unchecked could grow into a much more serious threat. Stories about them would be much more interesting then some unhinged guy kicking over a Trump tent.

[Crunch]

He didn’t tear down a tent, he drove through it. It’s only a matter of luck there were no serious injuries.

Meanwhile

HOBART, Ind. - A northwestern Indiana couple allegedly drove two teenage boys off a roadway they were riding along with flags supporting President Donald Trump attached to their bicycles, police said Friday.

Hobart police said Snapchat videos helped officers secure charges against Kyren Gregory Perry-Jones, 23, and Cailyn Marie Smith, 18, in connection with a July 22 incident.

Trying to run down a couple kids on their bikes. Again, it’s luck that nobody was injured.

As for antifa, how’s it going in Portland? Would you say they have suppprt of local government or not?