Author Topic: coronavirus  (Read 99042 times)

msquared

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2600 on: November 23, 2020, 01:15:32 PM »
Local government would be able to do more if they knew that the State and Federal government were all on the same page.

Trump could lead by speaking to the general populace about what sacrifices they could/should make for the common good.  Hark back to the days of WWII when giving up something to help others was more the rule than the exception.

Say travel if you have to, but do it safely. Wear a mask. Keep distance. For one or two Holidays, the best way to show your loved ones you love them is to not get together. That way, in 6-8 months, when the vaccine is readily available, and 10's of millions of people, if not 100's of millions have been vaccinated, we can have a national blow out.  Maybe July 4 2021 becomes an even larger national Holiday next year.

I want him to be the moral leader in this cause. But he has no moral center and so he is not able to rise to the occasion.

TheDeamon

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2601 on: November 23, 2020, 01:45:56 PM »
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even though IMO this is more a failure of local government and leadership (mostly municipal)

If a department fails to meet its goals is it the cooperate problem or just the departments'. What advice would you have for the senior cooperate management.  What role do they have in the setting of those goals and the ability of the department/team to meet them?


If a department fails to meet its goals is it the cooperate problem or just the departments'. What advice would you have for the senior cooperate management.  What role do they have in the setting of those goals and the ability of the department/team to meet them?[/quote]

Uh, you do realize that in the Federal System that the United States has, the states are co-equal to the Federal Government, not subservient.

The states are not "departments" within a larger corporate structure, they are their own corporate entity. Now cities and counties, depending on the constitutions of the respective state, may be sub-servient to the dictates of the state, and probably are(most are).

But blaming the Board of Paramount(circa 5 years ago) for negligent management practices at CBS(circa 5 years ago) is a bit weird? So why are you trying to make our government work in a way it is not designed to do so?

rightleft22

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2602 on: November 23, 2020, 02:01:07 PM »
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even though IMO this is more a failure of local government and leadership (mostly municipal)

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If a department fails to meet its goals is it the cooperate problem or just the departments'. What advice would you have for the senior cooperate management.  What role do they have in the setting of those goals and the ability of the department/team to meet them?


If a department fails to meet its goals is it the cooperate problem or just the departments'. What advice would you have for the senior cooperate management.  What role do they have in the setting of those goals and the ability of the department/team to meet them?

Uh, you do realize that in the Federal System that the United States has, the states are co-equal to the Federal Government, not subservient.

The states are not "departments" within a larger corporate structure, they are their own corporate entity. Now cities and counties, depending on the constitutions of the respective state, may be sub-servient to the dictates of the state, and probably are(most are).

But blaming the Board of Paramount(circa 5 years ago) for negligent management practices at CBS(circa 5 years ago) is a bit weird? So why are you trying to make our government work in a way it is not designed to do so?

I would think that such crises is when federal leadership is most needed.

I was responding to -
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IMO this is more a failure of local government and leadership (mostly municipal)

Local, state and federal all have a part to play blaming it on local leadership begs the question I asked.

The Board of paramount will feel the affects of negligent management practices at CBS. I would think that part of the solution is going to require direction from the Board. It true crap flows down but the buck stops at the top

And this isn't about blame its about accountability with each part of the system doing its part.  That said if the Board does nothing and or just assigns blame, they fail and should be removed.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2020, 02:03:42 PM by rightleft22 »

Fenring

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2603 on: November 23, 2020, 02:16:09 PM »
@ rightleft and msquared,

As TheDeamon suggests you both seem to be thinking of the U.S.A. as being a hierarchical system, with Federal at top, state next, and then municipal, whereas this is not the case. Federal has jurisdiction over certain specific things (more over time, mind you), and not over others. It does trump the states and municipalities in certain areas; for instance if the FBI declares a crime to be inter-state the Feds have jurisdiction, and local law enforcement can't veto that. However for most things it's cleaner to think of the whole structure as a quilt, with some parts with a Federal patch and other parts with a state or local patch. The pieces are supposed to fit together and in totality cover all aspects of life, without overlap (ideally). Since there is not supposed to be overlap there is no top-down oversight over anything that is supposed to be a state or municipal matter. Certain exceptions exist, for instance in matters of the supreme court rulings, or about travel restrictions and things like that. But for the most part the Federation government has no part at all in municipal matters such as parking laws, city by-laws regarding COVID precautions, and so forth. Trump cannot tell NYC for instance to do this or that. Of course with a very prominent city or mayor they may be in touch, but it's not Trump's job to micromanage municipal by-laws and policies. And in the matter of COVID restrictions while the Federal government may be within its rights to manage travel laws, I doubt it's within its rights to even tough the issue of whether masks have to be worn in businesses in a particular city, or whether there's a limit on gathering size (which may be a state or municipal issue, depending).

But that still doesn't address the main part of my question: do you think anything more than a mere off-the-cuff suggestion by the President should be enforced to ensure safety, or is that all you'd ask for? Because IMO that would probably be a minimally effective move. And by hypothesis, assuming it was minimally effective, if that was all you'd be willing to accept in terms of mandatory policy then I would argue you're not that serious about doing anything about COVID.

msquared

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2604 on: November 23, 2020, 02:26:42 PM »
I think I have answered that. 

I want more than off the cuff, I want a heart felt plea/argument for people to do  their civic duty.  Lead.  We do not need a national law, there are plenty of local  and state laws and regulations that can be used. But it seems to me that when their is no guidance from the top, or in Trumps case active actions against it, it gives some local leaders options to ignore for political benefit (at least in the short run).

They always talk about the bully pulpit of the President.  Instead of inflaming his followers to ignore any and all safety measures, Trump could have done a whole hell of a lot more to set the moral tone  used to combat this virus.

If he had gone to his evangelical supporters and told them it was their Christian duty to wear masks and distance, that it was a noble sacrifice, putting others before yourself, as Christ taught, I think a large number of them would have gone along.

If he had spoken to the patriots of the country, telling them we are at war (which he has said) and that some of the best weapons are a simple mask and distancing, I think a large portion would have done it.  If had brought up the sacrifices of those during WWII, both in the military and at home, and how they had done that for 4 years, and we would only have to do it for 1 year or so, it would have helped.

But Trump did the exact opposite. He made fun of people wearing masks. He did not wear masks.  He did not distance.  In fact he had large crowds, in close proximity, most with out masks, just so he could make fun of those who were trying to be safe.

He has failed as a leader of the country in this regard.

DonaldD

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2605 on: November 23, 2020, 02:35:49 PM »
In practice, even the most red-blooded US citizens look to the president as a moral leader, in far greater numbers than look to their respective governors.

This isn't a statement about the separation of powers, or the state vs federal jurisdiction dance.  It just is.

It is absolutely correct that states and even more local jurisdictions are the ones to implement laws with local effect.  But Federal leadership also has a role in setting the tone, and that, some kind of coherent, consistent leadership, is something that has been sorely lacking throughout the duration of the pandemic in the USA.  Instead, what you have had is the president working at cross purposes with the states, in an at best random, chaotic, off-the-cuff effort to avoid responsibility.

NobleHunter

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2606 on: November 23, 2020, 02:39:14 PM »
Not to mention some Governors set policy based on what Trump said. While the President has no legal authority over many of the tools required to defeat the pandemic, he can influence those who do have authority over the necessary tools.

Fenring

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2607 on: November 23, 2020, 02:54:44 PM »
Ok, I buy the idea that the President can help improve morale as regards taking the matter seriously, and I won't disagree with you there. In fact I personally think the bully pulpit has a lot more potential for good than has been used in the past. But the most relevant factor in any of this is how much effect there will be in terms of people actually changing their plans, avoiding contact, wearing masks, etc. Maybe you think that people would all fall in line if Trump said something; experience should teach otherwise, but I suppose it's possible. I'm more inclined to think that anything at all Trump says will be shunned by half the country, and for those that support him I suspect that they're the sort of people who won't be inclined to self-sacrificially give up things that mean a lot to them.

I mean, are there any instances of a conflict between local law and morale failure from Trump's lack of leadership?

msquare wrote:

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I want more than off the cuff, I want a heart felt plea/argument for people to do  their civic duty.  Lead.  We do not need a national law, there are plenty of local  and state laws and regulations that can be used. But it seems to me that when their is no guidance from the top, or in Trumps case active actions against it, it gives some local leaders options to ignore for political benefit (at least in the short run).

The case where I'd be most inclined to agree that the President is the chief source of trouble would be in a case where a mayor or governor tries to pass a safety regulation, and the local populous rebels significantly enough to cause them to back down and give up on those efforts. In such a case perhaps a strong word from the President would make them more inclined to respect the local governance. But let's say Trump says nothing at all - or by omission seems not to respect the matter - do you think that if a governor was absolutely resolved to ban gatherings or enforce mask laws, that the people would really refuse to comply? Is Trump the end-all of whether the American public will have any sense of ethics and decency? Because I really don't think that is the President's job. We're talking about an office that has included figures going to war for no reason, lying to the public, cheating on their wives, escalating Vietnam, etc etc etc. These are not moral people, nor was there any illusion that they were. So if Trump's guilt is to be found chiefly in his failure to be a moral leader then I do not agree with this assessment since I don't think that's a valid standard based on historical precedent. But if you think there are mechanical steps on a state or municipal level that actually cannot be taken without the President sort of backing them up, then I could see real responsibility there. But in that case I would conversely argue that the political structure has got a big problem, because it shouldn't be the President's role to make or break state and municipal regulations; that is far too much power, and too little of owning their own roles.

TheDeamon

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2608 on: November 23, 2020, 03:00:04 PM »
Going to change up the sequence slightly here.

I want more than off the cuff, I want a heart felt plea/argument for people to do  their civic duty.


"Civic duty" to do what exactly? Not go outside lest the unseeable boogeyman might give you a case of cooties which might kill less than 2% of the population? Where most of the people in that 2% category are elderly or otherwise "medically unsound" (barring other genetic factors not fully understood) and "non-productive" members of society with little or no chance of ever becoming productive members in the future? Sure, while "non-productive" they are valued by people in society as whole, but does "civic duty" really mean taking measures which kills off entire sectors of the economy wholesale?

That might be an easy enough answer for somebody who is directly impacted by that 2% of the population that dies, or otherwise is involved is a segment of the economy largely unimpacted by the shutdown. But for those people working in those business sectors that did get shutdown? Their answer is likely to be a bit different, as "civic duty" for them meant throwing away their livelihood, their hopes, their dreams, and years or even decades of blood, sweat, and tears in order to maybe save a comparative handful of people.

The post-mortem on Covid19 is going to be fascinating to see once we get some distance behind us on it. I'm inclined to suspect that places like California(especially San Fran and LA which basically never left lockdown), Michigan, and NYC are going to have paid a very high price in the name of prevention, and in the final analysis, it will not have been worth the cost. We'll see what happens once the recovery phase starts to happen in the wake of vaccine rollouts.

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If he had spoken to the patriots of the country, telling them we are at war (which he has said) and that some of the best weapons are a simple mask and distancing, I think a large portion would have done it.  If had brought up the sacrifices of those during WWII, both in the military and at home, and how they had done that for 4 years, and we would only have to do it for 1 year or so, it would have helped.

Except at the start of this, there were plenty of experts who had doubts of a viable vaccine ever being developed, or at best, that it would be years before one could be made widely available. There was a very real chance that the ask could have been for "a year of sacrifice" only for them to turn around and say "Sorry, we thought it would only be a year, it's going to be at least another one." Rinse and repeat, with the social and economic costs of the ongoing shutdown just further accumulating. If we didn't have vaccines getting ready to be deployed at this time, what would we be discussing right now? Remaining locked up in perpetuity or resuming "business as usual" with people doing their best to protect the vulnerable--and invalidating everything done the year before?

There was no "clean" answer to this, and because of the vaccines are near at hand, we're now having this discussion from a position of "knowing the unknowable" a year ago.

How Trump handled things was a mess, but how a lot of other nations and states handled it with their lockdowns also were a mess. Trump at least had a sense that a middleground needed to be walked, but the buffoon he is, he was incapable of communicating it effectively, and his narcissism also turned the into being all about him, which didn't help.

That doesn't excuse the Democrats, or other entities from insisting the only option was to lock down.

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Lead.  We do not need a national law, there are plenty of local  and state laws and regulations that can be used. But it seems to me that when their is no guidance from the top, or in Trumps case active actions against it, it gives some local leaders options to ignore for political benefit (at least in the short run).

It doesn't help when there is a self-interested group involved in the process who also knew they could fall back on "science" and constantly call for shutdowns, which they know were economically and socially crippling and thus unviable, but left them capable of blaming Trump for anything bad that happened because things were left open. So as a result of that, those self-interested parties had no interest in trying to reason out what that "middle ground" might actually be, and play something of an apologist for Trump. As destroying Trump by any means necessary was the objective.

It wasn't simply a failure of leadership. It was a failure of every part of the information distribution chain because they allowed agenda to take precedence over reasoning their way through "the rest of the problem" which wasn't medical in nature.

I blame CNN, I blame MSNBC, NBC, CBS, ABC, Fox, the DNC, and even the GOP for that. That isn't Trump's fault alone, there is all kinds of blame to go around for everybody.

rightleft22

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2609 on: November 23, 2020, 03:17:15 PM »
As you mention the tasking of getting it done fails to the lower levels of government with regards to the Federal administration this crises was a gimme, all that was required was to set the tone and provide avenue to recourses where possible.

The administration failed making the local level of government job that mush harder. Sorry but you can't spin this any other way. 

TheDrake

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2610 on: November 24, 2020, 12:55:56 AM »
For six years, London was shut down and dark to save lives in ww2. 70,000 people died in that span. So I'm not going to gnash my teeth over closed businesses any more than I would have in that scenario.

Most of those people didnt die in the air raids. They recovered from serious injuries.

TheDeamon

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2611 on: November 24, 2020, 03:45:00 AM »
Unless I'm mistaken, London was still operational during daylight hours, they shutdown at night to ensure the German planes didn't have lights to guide them in.

It wasn't just London that did that, coastal communities in the United States on both coasts were doing that ("blackouts") as well, only they didn't get bombed.

DonaldD

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2612 on: November 24, 2020, 08:45:58 AM »
The good news is that the US numbers, even though new cases are still increasing daily, they have been increasing less quickly over the past 4-5 days than earlier in the month. 

The bad news is Thanksgiving is just about to happen...

msquared

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2613 on: November 24, 2020, 09:16:14 PM »
13 days for another 20,000 dead. That is over 1,500/day now and we are heading into winter and families not listening and gathering for Thanksgiving and Christmas.   I wonder if we hit 400,000 by the end of the year.

Grant

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2614 on: November 28, 2020, 11:52:12 AM »

"Civic duty" to do what exactly? Not go outside lest the unseeable boogeyman might give you a case of cooties which might kill less than 2% of the population? Where most of the people in that 2% category are elderly or otherwise "medically unsound" (barring other genetic factors not fully understood) and "non-productive" members of society with little or no chance of ever becoming productive members in the future?

Jeezus.  Really? 

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Sure, while "non-productive" they are valued by people in society as whole, but does "civic duty" really mean taking measures which kills off entire sectors of the economy wholesale?

What sectors of the economy?  Which one died?  Was there a funeral?  I missed it. 

I love how it's always a binary choice.  We can kill the economy, sorry, WHOLE SECTORS OF THE ECONOMY, OR we can sacrifice the elderly non-productive members of society in a kind of russian roulette.  'Cause that's the natural outcome of an individual doing their "civic duty".  Deciding to shutdown their business. 

Or, you know, you could just wear masks like everybody was telling you to from day 1.  And you can stay home as much as possible.  Work from home if you're able.  But yeah, that will end up destroying entire sectors of the economy.  At least the funeral home sector and the hospital sector is doing great, though. 

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But for those people working in those business sectors that did get shutdown? Their answer is likely to be a bit different, as "civic duty" for them meant throwing away their livelihood, their hopes, their dreams, and years or even decades of blood, sweat, and tears in order to maybe save a comparative handful of people.

Saving a comparative handful of people?  265,000 people have died.  Two Hundred and Sixty Five THOUSAND.  That's nearly as many Americans that were killed by enemy action in WWII.  Almost enough non productive members of society to fill Tiger Stadium THREE TIMES.  If you stacked all those people, head to toe, and assumed an average of 6 feet of height, the line would stretch 301 miles.  If you were to walk along that line to see every body, at 3mph, walking 12 hours a day, it would take you slightly over two and half days of walking to see every body. 

Every single one of those non-productive people who died was somebody's father, mother, brother, sister, son, or daughter.  But the good news is that they were non-productive.  Every single one of those deaths could have been prevented.  Sometimes simply by wearing the proper PPE like a mask, or maintaining distance, or someone else staying home when they were sick.  But the good news is that they were unproductive.  I'd hate for people to throw away their dreams of drinking at the bar tonight, or seeing Wonder Woman 84 in a theatre, to save 100,000 people. 

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The post-mortem on Covid19 is going to be fascinating to see once we get some distance behind us on it. I'm inclined to suspect that places like California(especially San Fran and LA which basically never left lockdown), Michigan, and NYC are going to have paid a very high price in the name of prevention, and in the final analysis, it will not have been worth the cost.

It's true.  There will be many more bartenders in Las Vegas than in San Francisco next year.  Dear God.  The cost...the cost. 

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Except at the start of this, there were plenty of experts who had doubts of a viable vaccine ever being developed, or at best, that it would be years before one could be made widely available.

Which expert was that?   Some guy on the interwebs?  Maybe somebody on the Hannity show?  Show quack general practitioner? Maybe a neuroradiologist from a conservative think tank that doesn't know cac about epidemics? 

It's amazing with all these plenty of experts that the vaccine makers started on vaccines almost immediately.  I mean, who would have guessed?  Obviously not all these experts you're quoting.  I mean, I guessed that we'd have a vaccine by January to February of 2021, back in MARCH!  But I'm far from being an expert.  I'm just not a frickin idiot, and I don't listen to idiots.  You must be the other guy.  Because we're obviously not getting our news that forms our opinions from the same sources. 

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How Trump handled things was a mess, but how a lot of other nations and states handled it with their lockdowns also were a mess. Trump at least had a sense that a middleground needed to be walked, but the buffoon he is, he was incapable of communicating it effectively, and his narcissism also turned the into being all about him, which didn't help.

Trump had a sense of a middle ground, eh?  Which sense was he using?  The force?  His powerful business sense?  Maybe if the dude didn't just ignore it at first, then be a mask skeptic and listened to his professional expert advisors, then we'd have an extra 20-100K people still alive today.  But hey, they were non-productive anyways. 

The middle ground in this case was a complete failure.  If we had gone either way hard at the start, it would have been better.  If we had just never shutdown and just gone full bore, sure, we'd have 1,000,000 people dead, but hey man, they're non productive anyways, and we gotta protect those sectors of the economy, and nothing makes the economy better than 1,000,000 dead consumers.  If we had gone hard the other way, and shut down hard, at the beginning in March, and instituted hard restrictions on international travel, then maybe we are more close to what happened in New Zealand.  Of course, all those economic sectors would now be dead. 

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It was a failure of every part of the information distribution chain because they allowed agenda to take precedence over reasoning their way through "the rest of the problem" which wasn't medical in nature.

I blame CNN, I blame MSNBC, NBC, CBS, ABC, Fox, the DNC, and even the GOP for that. That isn't Trump's fault alone, there is all kinds of blame to go around for everybody.

The information distribution chain?  The information needed to make good choices were all there at the very start of this thing.  Nothing was new.  This wasn't some unique occurrence in the history of the universe.  I got on here in March and said the same crap over and over.  Wear a mask.  Stay home.  Use hand sanitizer.  Be prepared.  But let's blame CNN. 

Personally, I don't blame CNN or Fox or the DNC or the GOP.  I blame people who have become so political and get so much of their information from Facebook and Twitter, that they are incapable of making intelligent decisions anymore.  I blame the people who didn't wear masks and stay home, despite being told to do so.  I blame you.

If you're that guy, then take responsibility and learn from it.  Don't blame CNN or Fox. Nobody is making you watch that *censored*. 




Meanwhile, we have 6-7 months before we can get the vaccine rolled out to everybody.  How do we prevent the next 300-600 thousand deaths of non-productive citizens before then?  Without sacrificing the livelihoods and dreams of every bartender in America.  Because if we have to make the choice, it's going to have to be bartenders, because they're productive members of society. 


TheDeamon

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2615 on: November 28, 2020, 05:00:42 PM »
What sectors of the economy?  Which one died?  Was there a funeral?  I missed it. 

I love how it's always a binary choice.  We can kill the economy, sorry, WHOLE SECTORS OF THE ECONOMY, OR we can sacrifice the elderly non-productive members of society in a kind of russian roulette.  'Cause that's the natural outcome of an individual doing their "civic duty".  Deciding to shutdown their business. 

Or, you know, you could just wear masks like everybody was telling you to from day 1.  And you can stay home as much as possible.  Work from home if you're able.  But yeah, that will end up destroying entire sectors of the economy.  At least the funeral home sector and the hospital sector is doing great, though.
 
In this thread, we see a commentary about the shut down in general gets turned into a discussion on masks, something I wasn't even speaking about.

Grant

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2616 on: November 28, 2020, 05:15:23 PM »
 
In this thread, we see a commentary about the shut down in general gets turned into a discussion on masks, something I wasn't even speaking about.

If you don't wear a mask
And you don't stay on your ass
Then the 'Rona goes to town
And the gov'ment shuts you down

TheDrake

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2617 on: November 28, 2020, 05:38:57 PM »
Such hyperbole. Sectors of the economy DESTROYED! I don't think that term means what you think it does. Millions of bars and restaurants still exist. Sure, some failed. Which is why it is so imperative to pass, you know, a stimulus package. We don't have to choose between writing off millions of Americans to death or bankruptcy. We can just give them some cash. There's plenty around.

DonaldD

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2618 on: November 30, 2020, 09:25:00 AM »
It looks like Kansas has done the heavy lifting for the rest of the country, taking it upon themselves, at the cost to the health of their own population, to show that enforcing mask mandates actually does work:

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Researchers analyzed coronavirus infection rates in Kansas following a statewide mask mandate. They found that counties that chose to enforce the mandate saw their cases decrease. Counties that chose to opt out saw their cases continue to rise.

OK, OK, it is pretty likely that the counties that enforced the mask mandate likely also had more political support for other measures to control the spread of the virus, but it is suggestive...

Fenring

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2619 on: November 30, 2020, 10:23:56 AM »
The thing about masks is they in theory show a willingness to take it seriously. Once you're taking it seriously maybe other subconscious steps will be taken. Or at least we'd hope so...since wearing masks is often not much of a reminder for people to socially distance. DonaldD, you're probably right, that willingness to wear masks will most probably have its biggest effect in toleration of other mandated rules.

Grant

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2620 on: November 30, 2020, 03:46:46 PM »
Whelp, Rhode Island hospitals are at capacity.  They're opening up two field hospitals to take non-critical COVID patients.  Government asks everybody to stay at home, destroying entire sectors of the Rhode Island economy.  Every Burger King in Providence is probably going to go bankrupt and be converted into Fat Alberts. 

Now taking bets on which state reaches capacity next. 

msquared

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2621 on: November 30, 2020, 09:04:18 PM »
For those of you who say it is just the flu, more people died this year of Covid-19 in the US than have died from Flu  in the past 5 years combined.

https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/2335123/?fbclid=IwAR0YQImVx1CRtuVA3IMILHhS5IfsXqs5qgGD8Inb9QdekrQy-f2SaLgmkfU

DonaldD

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2622 on: November 30, 2020, 09:42:46 PM »
And that is without even including the highest death-rate months for viral infections in the country - December through February.

TheDrake

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2623 on: November 30, 2020, 10:12:59 PM »
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More than four months later, the symptoms have not gone away. My heart still races even though I am resting. I cannot stay in the sun for long periods; it zaps all of my energy. I have gastrointestinal problems, ringing in the ears and chest pain.

I’m what’s known as a long-hauler – part of a growing group of people who have COVID-19 and have never fully recovered. Fatigue is one of the most common persistent symptoms, but there are many others, including the cognitive effects people often describe as brain fog. As more patients face these persistent symptoms, employers will have to find ways to work with them. It’s too soon to say we’re disabled, but it’s also too soon to know how long the damage will last.

So in another year, we can add to people who died of covid, the number of people permanently crippled by it. Hopefully its just a long recovery. A friend of mine was sick for 3 weeks, now has negative test results. They'll mark her as "recovered" in the data. I fear she could fall in to this category. Holding out hope that it will be temporary for most of these folks. But yeah, your mask freedom is so much more important.

heartbreaking article

According to informal estimates based on support groups, there are tens of thousands of these people. But sure, that's a lot better than maybe not traveling on the holidays, going to bars, and having big weddings.

fizz

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2624 on: December 01, 2020, 06:53:20 AM »
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A friend of mine was sick for 3 weeks, now has negative test results. They'll mark her as "recovered" in the data. I fear she could fall in to this category.

By the way, I told here some times ago that my brother got covid: thankfully he seems having a mild form, but even if more than 3 weeks have passed since getting diagnosed, he's still having some mild fever and symptoms even today.
He's well enough to still manage to work some, but definitely not in peak form.

yossarian22c

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2625 on: December 02, 2020, 10:36:14 AM »
https://www.npr.org/2020/12/01/940697524/the-ripple-effect-of-1-rural-colorado-doctor-catching-the-coronavirus

Just more evidence of the severity among survivors.

Quote
Papenfus, a lively 63-year-old, was discharged after a nine-day stay at St. Joseph's Hospital in Denver, and he was eager to sound the alarm about the disease he calls the 'rona.

"The 'rona beast is a very nasty beast, and it is not fun. It has a very mean temper. It loves a fight, and it loves to keep coming after you," Papenfus said.
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Since being released from the hospital, Papenfus has had a rocky recovery. His wife, Joanne, drove him back to Cheyenne Wells, wearing an N95 mask and gloves, while he rode in the back on oxygen, coughing through the three-hour drive.

Once back at home, Papenfus hunkered down, with the occasional trip outside to hang out with his pet falcon.

But a week after going home, he started having nightly fevers. He had a CT scan done at Keefe Memorial, the hospital where he works. It revealed pneumonia in his lungs, so he went back to Denver, getting readmitted at St. Joseph's Hospital. This time, Papenfus arrived via ambulance.
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He said he was now at Day 35 from his first symptoms, lying in his hospital bed in Denver, "wondering when I'll ever get back." Papenfus noted that COVID-19 has affected his critical thinking and that he'd need to be cleared cognitively to return to work. He said he knows he won't have the physical stamina to get back to full duty "for a while, if ever."

msquared

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2626 on: December 02, 2020, 04:28:02 PM »
Almost 2,600 deaths yesterday.  Just like the flu.

Grant

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2627 on: December 02, 2020, 04:40:02 PM »
Almost 2,600 deaths yesterday.  Just like the flu.

They're all non-productive.  Superbowl 2021 and Protestpolooza till you drop.

TheDrake

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2628 on: December 02, 2020, 04:50:42 PM »
Meanwhile we have people organizing marches through retail operations against masks.

This actually happened, it isn't satire

DonaldD

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2629 on: December 02, 2020, 09:36:36 PM »
And today saw the most deaths recorded in a single day since the beginning of the pandemic. By the end of next week, the US will break the 300,000 death mark.

Today also tied the peak number of new daily cases recorded (set 2 weeks ago) and tomorrow and Friday will almost certainly see new, significant, daily records set for new cases.


TheDrake

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2630 on: December 03, 2020, 12:11:19 PM »
Quote
In the latest example of misinformation about the coronavirus ricocheting across social media, a Nevada doctor’s selfie has been used to spread false claims that downplay the severity of the pandemic.

In the picture posted to Twitter on Sunday, the doctor, Jacob Keeperman, is standing at the Renown Regional Medical Center’s alternate care site in Reno, Nev. In the background, empty hospital beds covered in plastic stand in a vacant parking area. The photo was taken on Nov. 12, the day the site opened, so patients had not yet arrived, Renown Health said.

“I want to thank all the incredible staff who are Fighting the Good Fight to help all those suffering from COVID-19,” Dr. Keeperman, the medical director for Renown’s Transfer and Operations Center, wrote. “With 5 deaths in the last 32 hours, everyone is struggling to keep their head up. Stay strong.”

His photograph was then used by the account @Networkinvegas to erroneously claim that it showed a “fake hospital” that had “never seen a single patient.”

On Tuesday, President Trump brought that falsehood to a wider audience, retweeting the @Networkinvegas post with the comment: “Fake election results in Nevada, also!” Twitter flagged the president’s tweet, noting that the claim about election fraud was “disputed.”

In fact, the alternate care site in Reno has cared for a total of 219 Covid patients in the three weeks it has been open. And across Nevada, hospitalizations have risen 43 percent in the last 14 days, with a 55 percent increase in deaths, according to a New York Times database.

Fenring

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2631 on: December 03, 2020, 02:29:19 PM »
In the picture posted to Twitter on Sunday, the doctor, Jacob Keeperman, is standing at the Renown Regional Medical Center’s alternate care site in Reno, Nev. In the background, empty hospital beds covered in plastic stand in a vacant parking area. The photo was taken on Nov. 12, the day the site opened, so patients had not yet arrived, Renown Health said.

I didn't check up on this news story so can't vet the details, but on this topic I want to say that I think it should be a jailable offense if it can be proven someone deliberately lied and is spreading disinformation on a topic related to public safety. I view is as similar to yelling fire in a theatre or other actions that are not protected under free speech due to public endangerment.

DonaldD

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2632 on: December 03, 2020, 02:35:48 PM »
I think it should be a jailable offense if it can be proven someone deliberately lied and is spreading disinformation on a topic related to public safety.

Unfortunately, the DoJ has a policy of not indicting sitting presidents, though...

TheDrake

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2633 on: December 04, 2020, 02:56:34 PM »
Quote
Yet excitement over next week’s planned launch of a mass immunization program was tempered Friday by frustration over a late decision to exclude front line health workers from the first round — though many had already booked appointments.

Priority will go to people over 80 years old and to nursing home caregivers, and public health officials conceded that demand could quickly outstrip supply in the early months, even for those groups. The 800,000 doses Britain expects to get this month “could be the only batch we receive for some time,” warned Chris Hopson, chief executive of NHS Providers.

That sounds dumb. With a huge strain on the healthcare system, keeping the doctors and nurses able to work seems like it ought to be critical. Nursing homes are very important to immunize also, but they are much better able to isolate than people who actually have to, you know, give care to people with covid.

msquared

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2634 on: December 05, 2020, 04:31:11 PM »
Well we broke 280,000 dead today. That is 40,000 in just 24 days (since Nov 11 when we hit 240,000). That is an average of 1,667 per day for the last 3 weeks or so.  So 1 9/11 every 2 days.

And what is Trump doing?   Golfing and filing frivolous law suits.  Opposing Federal bail money for blue states (since now even the red states are having huge financial problems since they are were the worst of the pandemic is happening right now, since he told them it was a hoax and they believed him).

So by Christmas we will probably have over 315,000 dead.  Probably closer to 350,000.

TheDeamon

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2635 on: December 06, 2020, 02:04:13 AM »
Quote
Yet excitement over next week’s planned launch of a mass immunization program was tempered Friday by frustration over a late decision to exclude front line health workers from the first round — though many had already booked appointments.

Priority will go to people over 80 years old and to nursing home caregivers, and public health officials conceded that demand could quickly outstrip supply in the early months, even for those groups. The 800,000 doses Britain expects to get this month “could be the only batch we receive for some time,” warned Chris Hopson, chief executive of NHS Providers.

That sounds dumb. With a huge strain on the healthcare system, keeping the doctors and nurses able to work seems like it ought to be critical. Nursing homes are very important to immunize also, but they are much better able to isolate than people who actually have to, you know, give care to people with covid.

I could see immunizing the caregivers(at recognized care facilities), but if they're in a nursing home, and being protected by only working/interacting  with immunized staff, I don't see the urgent need to immunize the people that are being cared for, people on the front lines should be next in line after that group is taken care of.

After all, if they're being rational about it, just because they immunized the 81YO in the care home doesn't mean they can start having family come to visit, because that could be bad news for the 79YO living across the hall from said 81YO.

Edit: I guess there is a higher priority grouping I'd consider: "Active" Healthcare practitioners over the age of 60 are sent to the head of the line.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2020, 02:09:53 AM by TheDeamon »

msquared

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2636 on: December 06, 2020, 04:07:05 PM »
And Rudy G has Covid.  Wonder how that will work with all of the law suits.

DonaldD

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2637 on: December 06, 2020, 05:28:23 PM »
Heard on Twitter: Rudy Giuliani tests positive for the Trump Virus hoax. He’s being treated at Walter Reed Auto & Collision Repair, and will be 'like new' after they change his oil.

DonaldD

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2638 on: December 06, 2020, 09:42:15 PM »
And today saw the first time the 7-day average of new daily cases has exceeded 200,000 - on average, that's 200,000 new cases a day for the past week.

And the Thanksgiving bump isn't even factoring into the numbers yet.

wmLambert

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2639 on: December 07, 2020, 10:52:39 PM »
Has anyone commented on the study that showed Coronavirus is over-hyped? https://www.iceagenow.info/panic-and-hysteria-completely-unfounded/

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John Hopkins and the CDC published a study and then deleted it rather quickly. The study revealed statistics showing COVID-19 has no measurable effect on deaths in the U.S.

This study was authored by Genevieve Briand who is the Assistant Program Director of the Applied Economics master’s program at John Hopkins. In her paper she notes that the death rate in the US this year shows almost no change compared to previous years despite the presence of COVID-19, meaning, things are essentially the same! She also notes that the reason older people have a higher number of reported COVID-19 deaths is because older people die in higher numbers than younger people.

Briand compiled and analyzed death rates among all age groups before and after the pandemic and she found that the death rate among older people remained the same as in previous years prior to 2020. She also found that the death rate from COVID-19 among younger people has not increased and, in fact, in every age category the death rate has remained the same before the dawn of the pandemic. What this suggests is that all of the panic and hysteria is completely unfounded.

Briand also pointed out that what has changed in this year of 2020 is that ALL OTHER CAUSES OF DEATH have “mysteriously declined” as COVID-19 deaths have increased! That’s nothing short of ASTOUNDING isn’t it? She concluded that what the statistics show is that ALL causes of death are now being categorized EXCLUSIVELY as deaths due to the virus and, meanwhile, very few people seem to being dying anymore from such things as heart disease, cancer, pneumonia, etc. Again….ASTOUNDING!

Briand included several graphics in her study and they illustrate CLEARLY that the total decrease in deaths from other causes almost EXACTLY corresponds to the increased number of deaths attributed to COVID-19. ASTOUNDING!! In other words, anything and everything is being attributed to death by COVID-19 while virtually all other causes of death including the flu have MAGICALLY disappeared. And we all know that is a load of absolute CRAP, right? People are dying from the same old diseases they’ve been dying from for eons long, long before the coronavirus arose.

The John Hopkins News Letter published by students of Hopkins since 1896 dated 2 December 2020 had also published Briand’s study but has since been removed (see link below). The study was published on November 22 and in its place is a note from the editor regarding Briand’s paper entitled “COVID-19: A Look at U.S. Data.” The editor states the reason for the removal was that Briand’s data “has been used to support dangerous inaccuracies that minimize the impact of the pandemic.” In other words Briand didn’t follow the approved political narrative. HOW DARE SHE!!

Check out the below links regarding Briand’s study and what the STATS really show. It is very eye-opening to say the least.

Here’s a copy of the now-deleted Johns Hopkins Newsletter
https://notthebee.com/article/a-few-days-ago-johns-hopkins-published-a-study-saying-corona-is-nbd-they-then-deleted-it-read-it-here-in-its-entirety

DonaldD

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2640 on: December 07, 2020, 11:41:25 PM »
Except... if you look at the CDC numbers, you can see that the CDC is showing excess deaths.  In fact, the CDC is showing upwards of 300,000 excess deaths.

What about that paper - is it possible that it was removed because it was simply a bad analysis?  No, that couldn't be true... but wait!  Here is the retraction by Johns Hopkins the very next day.

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Editor’s Note: After The News-Letter published this article on Nov. 22, it was brought to our attention that our coverage of Genevieve Briand’s presentation “COVID-19 Deaths: A Look at U.S. Data” has been used to support dangerous inaccuracies that minimize the impact of the pandemic.

...

As assistant director for the Master’s in Applied Economics program at Hopkins, Briand is neither a medical professional nor a disease researcher. At her talk, she herself stated that more research and data are needed to understand the effects of COVID-19 in the U.S.

Briand was quoted in the article as saying, “All of this points to no evidence that COVID-19 created any excess deaths. Total death numbers are not above normal death numbers.” This claim is incorrect and does not take into account the spike in raw death count from all causes compared to previous years. According to the CDC, there have been almost 300,000 excess deaths due to COVID-19. Additionally, Briand presented data of total U.S. deaths in comparison to COVID-19-related deaths as a proportion percentage, which trivializes the repercussions of the pandemic. This evidence does not disprove the severity of COVID-19; an increase in excess deaths is not represented in these proportionalities because they are offered as percentages, not raw numbers.

---

Because of these inaccuracies and our failure to provide additional information about the effects of COVID-19, The News-Letter decided to retract this article. It is our duty as a publication to combat the spread of misinformation and to enhance our fact-checking process. We apologize to our readers.

What we see here are basic mistakes in a student newspaper presented by a non-expert in epidemiology and an article which was later retracted once the errors were identified within a day of publication.

wmLambert

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2641 on: December 08, 2020, 10:10:49 AM »
...What we see here are basic mistakes in a student newspaper presented by a non-expert in epidemiology and an article which was later retracted once the errors were identified within a day of publication.

No, what we see are medical doctors fighting for their turf. Briand is not a student newspaper writer, but  Assistant Program Director of the Applied Economics master’s program. Briand also pointed out that what has changed in this year of 2020 is that "ALL OTHER CAUSES OF DEATH have “mysteriously declined” as COVID-19 deaths have increased! That’s nothing short of ASTOUNDING isn’t it? She concluded that what the statistics show is that ALL causes of death are now being categorized EXCLUSIVELY as deaths due to the virus and, meanwhile, very few people seem to being dying anymore from such things as heart disease, cancer, pneumonia, etc"

That 300K spike was offset by the 300K decrease in other causes.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2020, 10:14:48 AM by wmLambert »

DonaldD

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2642 on: December 08, 2020, 10:23:58 AM »
I'm just going to repeat this here since you clearly did not read it the last several times it was posted: if you look at the CDC numbers, you can see that the CDC is showing excess deaths.  In fact, the CDC is showing upwards of 300,000 excess deaths.

What Brand was doing was looking at percentages within segments of the population, not at actual numbers of deaths.

yossarian22c

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2643 on: December 08, 2020, 10:50:41 AM »
Or you could look at hospital data.

Quote
In 126 counties, the average hospital is at least 90% occupied, according to an analysis of the data by the COVID-19 Hospitalization Tracking Project. The states with the most counties above this threshold are Kentucky, Georgia, Minnesota, Oklahoma and Texas.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/07/944021201/new-covid-19-data-release-shows-where-hospitals-around-the-country-are-filling-u

wmLambert

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2644 on: December 08, 2020, 11:13:56 AM »
I'm just going to repeat this here since you clearly did not read it the last several times it was posted: if you look at the CDC numbers, you can see that the CDC is showing excess deaths.  In fact, the CDC is showing upwards of 300,000 excess deaths.

What Brand was doing was looking at percentages within segments of the population, not at actual numbers of deaths.

Really? How did they come up with that 300K excess deaths if they are only dealing in percentages? I have been loooking for real numbers for months, and what I see mirrors what Briand said. Tell me this. If it is percentages, and the real numbers have stayed the same, except for excess deaths, then why are the percentages reported and not the total. Briand said the "the death rate among older people remained the same as in previous years prior to 2020. She also found that the death rate from COVID-19 among younger people has not increased and, in fact, in every age category the death rate has remained the same before the dawn of the pandemic." Yet ,you say the Coronavirus deaths have spiked 300K If the death rate has remained the same - you must think a statistics expert can't realize that 100% of a bigger number isn't noticeable. The article put up a chart of the deaths in units - not percentages, so I don't know where you are getting your numbers from.

Go to https://notthebee.com/article/a-few-days-ago-johns-hopkins-published-a-study-saying-corona-is-nbd-they-then-deleted-it-read-it-here-in-its-entirety to see the charts, expressed in hard numbers and percentages.

yossarian22c

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2645 on: December 08, 2020, 11:19:56 AM »
I'm just going to repeat this here since you clearly did not read it the last several times it was posted: if you look at the CDC numbers, you can see that the CDC is showing excess deaths.  In fact, the CDC is showing upwards of 300,000 excess deaths.

What Brand was doing was looking at percentages within segments of the population, not at actual numbers of deaths.

Really? How did they come up with that 300K excess deaths if they are only dealing in percentages? I have been loooking for real numbers for months, and what I see mirrors what Briand said.

Then follow the link to the CDC. It lists total deaths. You can look at their chart or download their data and look at it in your preferred form.

DonaldD

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2646 on: December 08, 2020, 11:20:38 AM »
Really? How did they come up with that 300K excess deaths if they are only dealing in percentages?
You have it backwards: Briand is using percentage.  The CDC is dealing with actual reported deaths, and comparing the actual reported deaths to the planned numbers by month.

It is completely described in the CDC page you seemingly continue to avoid: CDC: Excess Deaths Associated with COVID-19

TheDrake

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2647 on: December 08, 2020, 01:05:23 PM »
Join me in celebrating the life of Dr. Carlos Araujo-Preza, who tirelessly fought to save the lives of his patients for seven months before succumbing himself to covid-19.

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Araujo said her father initially downplayed the extent of his condition, not wanting his family to panic. He told them he was going to the hospital for supplemental oxygen, and that he expected he would be discharged the next day.
"He was always saying, 'Oh, I'm good. I survived another day,'" she said. "He was very protective of us about his condition. And I think when he went to the hospital, he had no idea that it would become so serious."
Araujo-Preza was admitted to the ICU at HCA Houston Healthcare Tomball in early November, where he stayed about a week and a half, his daughter said. He had barely been out of the hospital 48 hours before he had to be readmitted.
By then, his condition had become more serious, and he was eventually transferred to Houston Methodist Hospital. A few days later, he was placed on a ventilator.
Araujo-Preza never returned home.

Our doctors and nurses deserve our respect, but more importantly they deserve our support. Stay at home. Do not travel. Do not go out to restaurants and bars. Do not throw parties.

A doctor who treated some of Houston's sickest Covid-19 patients has died

DonaldD

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2648 on: December 08, 2020, 04:52:09 PM »
And today saw the first time the 7-day average of new daily cases has exceeded 200,000 - on average, that's 200,000 new cases a day for the past week.

And the Thanksgiving bump isn't even factoring into the numbers yet.
Oops - missed this nugget - yesterday's 7-day total of deaths exceeded all other 7-day totals since the beginning of the pandemic - breaking the record set back in mid-April.

yossarian22c

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #2649 on: December 09, 2020, 11:53:30 AM »
https://www.npr.org/2020/12/08/944200394/florida-agents-raid-home-of-rebekah-jones-former-state-data-scientist

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Florida law enforcement agents searched the home of former state data scientist Rebekah Jones on Monday, entering her house with weapons drawn as they carried out a warrant as part of an investigation into an unauthorized message that was sent on a state communications system.
...
The Florida Department of Health is the agency that fired Jones in May, after she helped create the state's COVID-19 dashboard.
...
The court affidavit says the rogue message was sent to a state planning group, in which all users "share the same username and password."

So it looks like they are going to try to get her for "hacking" for allegedly using a shared username and password to send what amounts to basically a group text. Hacking is so broadly defined in many legal documents they could potentially have a technical legal case. Seems more like political persecution than anything else though.