coronavirus

[yossarian22c]

I think the biggest mistake Biden has made so far in his month of presidency is to push for the reopening of in person schools before teachers get vaccinated.

[TheDrake]

I think the restrictions should be decided more locally, federal guidance should be on parameters. Which are largely getting ignored. States are trying to prevent county and municipal governments to do what makes sense for them, that's generally bad. Iowa doesn't need to close down all of their bars, but Des Moines might. Likewise with schools. A high school with thousands of students might need to stay shut, but a class of 50 might not. Regular mandatory testing might need to be a part of that. Penalties for people knowingly sending sick kids to school would be nice.

Federal rules about transportation were badly needed. I fear we'll also rapidly approach the point where vaccine refusers will prevent reaching a herd immunity.

Refusing to treat immigrants, legal or otherwise, inhumanely does probably encourage more people to come here. That's not a desire for open borders. Meanwhile one million people legally enter the United States every single day. Are some border crossers really posing a significantly greater risk? If you really care about covid, you should probably really get serious about closed borders and eliminate all tourist visas to start with.

[rightleft22]

From official website of the United States government
"On March 21, 2020, the U.S., Mexico, and Canada temporarily restricted non-essential travel across the US-Canada land borders. These restrictions will remain in effect until 11:59 p.m. EDT on March 21, 2021. We are maintaining cross-border activities with Canada and Mexico that support health security, trade, commerce, supply security, and other essential activities while taking critical steps to protect our citizens and to curb spread of the virus. "

A million people legally enter the United States everyday seems like a high number with regards to the above. Where did you get that number from?

[TheDrake]

Those are not the current daily numbers, and I lost the link. I concede the number is high, looking more carefully, I find database visualization

Personal vehicle passengers per month is about 7M in December 2020. Was 16M in 2019. So if other stats track similarly, like trucks, we might reasonably think that the number is more like 500K instead of 1M. Compared to maybe 1,000 detainees per day, and border patrol claims a 90% apprehension rate. This number far outweighs trucks that stayed the same, and bus passengers which collapsed harder.

somewhat dated, but good enough, I think.

[cherrypoptart]

Way too early.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/2021/03/02/abbott-hints-at-exciting-news-tuesday-that-could-include-rollback-of-texas-covid-19-restrictions/

We should wait at least until after everyone who wants a vaccine can get one and it has time to go into effect especially with the mask mandate.

[DJQuag]

Way too early.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/2021/03/02/abbott-hints-at-exciting-news-tuesday-that-could-include-rollback-of-texas-covid-19-restrictions/

We should wait at least until after everyone who wants a vaccine can get one and it has time to go into effect especially with the mask mandate.

Do you mean we need to stop giving handjobs out amongst ourselves with this great victory, or do you mean like, "Oh shot homeboi popped off before we were ready?"

Shutting down masks, right now, even if it's just the government call is BS and it needs to be called out.

Christ. It's a thin layer of fabric or *even* paper laid between the nose and mouth of people. Why, given the *scientifically proven* facts on this virus and how it is would any conservative say, "ya man f* the masks."

Ya'll are embarrassing yourselves here.

[DJQuag]

I mean, what is a mask.

"Oh, sounds like they're going to ask me to wear a mask to go to my doctor. Guess I need to oil my guns."

I mean, really?

[cherrypoptart]

“Today’s announcement does not abandon the state practices that Texans have mastered over the past year,” Abbott said Tuesday. “Instead, it is a reminder that each person has their own role to play in their own personal safety.”

Going back to basics again and I know we've been over it many times but this is the part where people's logic trains seem to jump off the rails. A person can't protect themselves from maskless superspreaders. That's the whole point that he still doesn't get. The problem is there are too many dummies. I saw a guy in Costco a couple of days ago, and yes he had his mask and that's good, but he was actually singing, loudly, in the store, to himself I guess but the point is that he doesn't get the point. As the old saying goes, the stupid shall be punished. And there's no doubt we've got a lot of just plain stupid people and there is no doubt that we're getting punished by their stupidity. It's infuriating.

Israel is having a great response with their vaccines. All we have to do is keep doing what we're doing for a couple more months. Maybe even ease up a bit on some things and pretty much just keep the masks going in crowded indoor places. Just give it a few more months. I see it kind of like being in a war against the virus and there's a relatively calm period now, ore with the death toll still over a couple of thousands a day maybe we've just gotten used to the constant shelling, but in any case people are getting complacent and seem to think it's safe so they are going to go ahead and stick their heads up. And that's when the virus snipers are going to pick them off.

Other countries are having upsurges and are restricting travel and definitely not easing up on masks. It seems like it's no coincidence that every time we let our guard down and ease up a little the virus uses that opportunity to attack with a vengeance. If we just stayed disciplined we could probably beat it but apparently we're too stupid and want to give the variants a chance to express themselves and make the vaccines less effective putting at risk over a year of hard work developing them. It's entirely possible that a variant could arise that's more transmissible, more deadly, maybe hits children harder, and against which the vaccines provide very little or maybe even no protection. I understand it usually goes the other way but not always.

And though Biden is infinitely better on masking he fails on the border. There is a border surge right now. There is no way the people coming in are adhering to all the safety protocols for instance what we see in New Zealand and Hawaii. And now to add to it a border state like Texas is going berserk and throwing off their masks like they are 70s women with bras. Every country that has licked this thing has done it with masks and travel restrictions with secure borders and our so called leaders are intent on hitting us with failures on both of those fronts, and simultaneously.  We are getting pinchered with incompetence.

We're going to need that miracle Trump was talking about or we are about to be in for a world of hurt.

[cherrypoptart]

The conspiracy theorist in me wonders if he knows that hundreds of thousands more people are likely to die because he is opening Texas up three months too early and he's making a political calculation that it will hurt Biden more than it hurts him. This isn't just going to hurt Texans either because everyone travels everywhere and they are going to spread the pain all over the country; all over the world even. Maybe he wants to put Texas on the map by helping us develop a new more virulent more dangerous variant of our own so that the Texas variant puts all the others to shame. Of course there's the saying about not attributing to malice what is probably just stupidity but it's hard to imagine anyone is really this stupid.

[cherrypoptart]

Hopefully most of the stores keep their mask policies in place. If there's one that does and one that doesn't I know which one will get my business. Also, the curbside pickup is a godsend.

[yossarian22c]

Israel is having a great response with their vaccines. All we have to do is keep doing what we're doing for a couple more months. Maybe even ease up a bit on some things and pretty much just keep the masks going in crowded indoor places. Just give it a few more months. I see it kind of like being in a war against the virus and there's a relatively calm period now and people seem to think it's safe so they are going to go ahead and stick their heads up. And that's when the virus snipers are going to pick them off.

I agree with this so much. What we're doing with the virus is like a marathon runner starting a victory lap before the race is over. Or Leon Lett prancing into the endzone just to have a defender knock the ball away at the last second. The end is in site, just buckle down for another two months, get 60-80% of adults vaccinated and then see where we're at. But no, we've got to let the variants that are less impacted by the vaccines a foothold in the country before the vaccines can get to herd immunity levels to snuff out the virus.

After months of seeing people mostly masking up (even if sometime with slippage) in the last week I've twice seen people purposefully and insultingly go unmasked in grocery stores. What a**holes. This is why we can't have nice things. Because special snowflake Trumpies can't handle wearing a mask in public indoor spaces.

[yossarian22c]

And though Biden is infinitely better on masking he fails on the border. There is a border surge right now. There is no way the people coming in are adhering to all the safety protocols for instance what we see in New Zealand and Hawaii.

Again with the border misinformation? Biden hasn't thrown open the border at all. He actually added travel restrictions to the UK, Brazil, and South Africa - you know the places with the worst variants.

[cherrypoptart]

So there aren't around ten thousand people every month crossing the border illegally without being apprehended like the situation has been for the last couple of decades? Let me just ask it outright then because I'm looking and I can't find the information.

How many people are crossing our border illegally right now without being apprehended meaning there are no checks on them at all?

I do remember that it used to be tens of thousands per month and I see an article that illegal border crossings, and by that I mean the people who are never caught, are up to pre-Covid levels.

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/southwest-land-border-encounters

If we're getting over 70,000 apprehensions per month then how many get through? I guess we'll never know. I suppose that's one of the great joys about living without a secure border.

Of course it's always been like that. Can't really blame Biden since he just took office. Oh wait, he's been in Congress for decades so actually he can be blamed.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/number-of-immigrant-families-illegally-crossing-u-s-border-rises-to-pre-covid-19-levels-11613644201

I can't get through the paywall on this but there's enough information to indicate that there are a LOT of crossings. To imagine that is somehow good for the controlling the pandemic is very difficult.

[yossarian22c]

So there aren't around ten thousand people every month crossing the border illegally without being apprehended like the situation has been for the last couple of decades? Let me just ask it outright then because I'm looking and I can't find the information.

You weren't complaining about this three months ago when the crossings were basically the same. Was Trump magic because he was building a wall? Biden hasn't destroyed it or withdrawn the border patrol but he didn't magically solve the problem of poverty, crime, and desperation in the countries to our south that drive people to try to come to the USA.

But I'll consider this a win anyway. We're at least discussing policy instead of whatever idiotic thing Trump said on twitter in the last 24 hours.

[TheDrake]

Well, one of my best friends is about to get fired because she won't interact with maskless customers, and the LOCALLY owned business that has employed her for over a decade is following the Governors lead and dropping the requirement. What was that Abbot said again?

“Instead, it is a reminder that each person has their own role to play in their own personal safety.”

So I guess her role is to be unemployed rather than risk serious illness over a swath of fabric in a furniture store.

I can't get through the paywall on this but there's enough information to indicate that there are a LOT of crossings. To imagine that is somehow good for the controlling the pandemic is very difficult.

Nobody says it is GOOD, we say it is negligible or irrelevant compared to the next 19 more significant factors. Stop tying them together, it makes you look like a zenophobe. You know what? Some of the people crossing the border also have measles! Some of them jaywalk too! Some of them have bad breath! CLOSE THE BORDER FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!

[Wayward Son]

Meanwhile, Macro Rubio shows where Republican priorities lie.

“I’m not going to get punked into voting for a bill that helps Pelosi bail out California, that helps Schumer bail out the predator Governor of New York.”

— Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL), on Twitter, saying he’ll vote against President Joe Biden’s pandemic relief package.

He forgot to add, "And who gives a rat's patootie how many people suffer because of it!!!!" 

[cherrypoptart]

Here's a story on it but it's Fox so y'all might not like it.

https://news.yahoo.com/biden-administration-prioritizing-illegal-immigrants-142406790.html

The point is that the numbers are overwhelming and the controls against spreading the virus would be laughable if they weren't so deadly. Is anyone really going to tell me that everyone coming in is tested and all of them who test positive are quarantined in a hotel room under guard like they do it in New Zealand? Of course not. As far as I can see they are just being released and are being asked to quarantine when they get to where ever they are going, and that's all over the country.

Now this next story is Canada but it brings up a good point, well actually several including how difficult it is to keep travelers from spreading the virus around but two of the best points are that the tests often give false negatives and also in Canada you need another test at the end of your quarantine and I don't see anything saying that we're doing anything like that for those coming in on our border now.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/new-rules-requiring-a-negative-covid-19-test-at-canadian-border-now-in-effect-1.5309007

Minimizing the danger just because it's politically correct is the same type of thing that was done for the BLM protests.  And I agree that the people walking around outside were probably okay but with those numbers of people there had to be times when people outside of trust circles gathered indoors and spread the virus around too when they wouldn't have without the protests.

One bad thing about doing that is that after seeing the politically correct exceptions made at the expense of pandemic safety protocols, people look around and see the double standard and notice that ask themselves if they are the only ones expected to take this seriously?

If there's one thing Americans are good at, it's finding a reason to slack off.

Which brings me to the CDC director:

https://news.yahoo.com/cdc-walensky-says-fatigue-winning-170648593.html

Now she is right on the money. It's finally good to have someone competent there. If there's one fault I can find in her, and it's not necessarily her fault really, it's just that I don't know if what she's saying is persuading the people who need to be persuaded. She's telling it exactly like it is. She's warning us. But some people are just too thick-headed to listen to reason, the governor of Texas among them.

Americans are looking for any and every reason to be lazy and complacent. The numbers coming down just a little bit is good enough for many of them. Biden being reckless with controlling Covid-19 and the variants coming across the border is good enough for some of them too. If the virus wasn't under control he wouldn't be opening us up like that would he?

Yeah I know y'all aren't having any of it but I'm just telling you a lot of people look at it and shake their heads and wonder what's the point. We can lockdown all we want and wear masks all we want but if we're just going to let hundreds of thousands of people in like this then it's fighting a losing battle. Again with the war comparison but it's like two flanks watching each other and as one starts to collapse the other gives up too. There are two flanks to the war on Covid-19. New Zealand knows it. Canada knows it. Hawaii knows it. Everyone knows it. But in our country half of the population is only willing to battle on one flank. Half on masks. Half on travel restrictions. And both the flanks instead of fighting the virus are determined to fight each other. That's no way to win a war.

[Wayward Son]

You know, cherry, you make it sound like the Corona virus is some new, exotic disease coming in from another country and poised to spread throughout the United States and kill who knows how many hundreds of thousands of people.

News flash:  we all ready have it.

In fact, we have one of the highest infection rates in the world, if not the highest (anymore).

You're afraid that some illegal immigrant might give you the virus?  How about the guy next door to you?  The woman behind you in the grocery checkout line?  The cashier at that store?  The people sitting next to you in the restaurant?  You got a thousand times better chance of catching it from them than from some poor slob who just came over the border trying to save his own neck from a horrible situation.  Heck, they should be more worried about catching it from good Americans like you!

The barn door's been open so long the horses are in the next county already.  Stop worrying about a few more cases coming over the border, adding maybe a faction of a percent to our total, and worry about how we are going to get those stupid people who don't believe in vaccines vaccinated, so herd immunity can properly kick in.  This is just a silly distraction because you don't have anything better to criticize Joe Biden about, since he's so much better than that previous clunk-head of a President was. 

[TheDrake]

Meanwhile, the only threat from immigration on covid is the number of people crossing the border who ARE ALREADY INFECTED. You don't get to count, hey look that illegal immigrant is sick - immigrants are inflating the pandemic, just because one of the dreamers gets a couple of people sick. They're just people man, they're just people. They have as much of a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as you or I do. They have as much of a right to not be murdered or enslaved by drug cartels as you or I do. Turning our backs on them is callous and inhumane. America First is America Worst.

[cherrypoptart]

> Wayward Son

"You're afraid that some illegal immigrant might give you the virus?"

I mean I've explained it before so the problem is encouraging these mass migrations right now the way Biden is doing is the exact opposite of what the scientists and healthcare professionals say we need to do to combat the virus. I thought those were the people we were supposed to be listening to but apparently we just ignore them when their advice is politically incorrect just like the BLM protests. Now of course I'm opposed to illegal immigration anyway, and abuse of the asylum claims system as well, and I don't deny that, but the point is that this is a particularly bad time to resume encouraging it.

And this isn't just about it being brought here either, although of course there is that. But it's also about it being carried from one end of the Americas to the other and spread everywhere in between. If a dangerous variant happens to arise in someone but they are not traveling around so much then there's a much better chance of it dying out, but with everyone going all over the place and meeting thousands of people along the way those variants are allowed to spread. And not just the more dangerous and transmissible variants but the regular old virus itself.  And who is to say that encouraging all of this migration right now is even the best thing for people who are suffering? It may well be that while traveling across two continents and spreading the virus to various people who are also struggling, we end up taking in a hundred thousand people while getting another hundred thousand or more across Latin America killed by the virus who otherwise might have dodged it long enough for them to get vaccinated in a few more months or protected by others who are vaccinated. Remember how this all started? Travelers. And it doesn't matter if you're going to a conference, a ski resort, taking a cruise vacation, or you are traveling because of gang violence or lack of jobs or even lack of food. It matters to us of course but it doesn't matter at all to the virus.

I'm not sure why that's so difficult to understand.

Just like the masks are pretty easy to understand too.

But people often just don't want to admit the obvious when it conflicts with their emotions.

It's not about making it personal like you're afraid some illegal is going to personally infect you or is going to personally take your job away. It's about policy and the big picture. It's about should we have limits based on our needs and safety and how many people we can handle coming in at a time or do those not matter and the only limit is based on how much poverty and hardship there is in the world because if that's the limit then for all practical purposes there is no limit and the kicker is when our kind-hearted policies end up doing more harm than good.

[yossarian22c]

I mean I've explained it before so the problem is encouraging these mass migrations right now the way Biden is doing is the exact opposite of what the scientists and healthcare professionals say we need to do to combat the virus. I thought those were the people we were supposed to be listening to but apparently we just ignore them when their advice is politically incorrect just like the BLM protests. Now of course I'm opposed to illegal immigration anyway, and abuse of the asylum claims system as well, and I don't deny that, but the point is that this is a particularly bad time to resume encouraging it.

Biden is not encouraging mass caravans and open borders. The only thing Biden has done that could be interpreted that way is saying we are going to quit separating families and putting kids and parents in places where they may never see each other again. He hasn't opened the borders, and your evidence that he has is that the border patrol is detaining and deporting more people. No one (that I know of) is complaining about Biden's new travel restrictions on the UK, Brazil, and South Africa. Biden isn't throwing open the borders, he's working on making our policy towards illegal immigrants not so harsh as to be akin to crimes against humanity. Because separating infants from mothers and then having the kids "lost" in the system is as cruel and inhumane policy as any county could have for someone walking across a line in the sand looking for a better life.

The right wing media spins any policy short of shooting people crossing the border illegally as open borders. Very few people are arguing for such a policy.

[TheDrake]

> Wayward Son

"You're afraid that some illegal immigrant might give you the virus?"

I mean I've explained it before so the problem is encouraging these mass migrations right now the way Biden is doing is the exact opposite of what the scientists and healthcare professionals say we need to do to combat the virus. I thought those were the people we were supposed to be listening to but apparently we just ignore them when their advice is politically incorrect just like the BLM protests. Now of course I'm opposed to illegal immigration anyway, and abuse of the asylum claims system as well, and I don't deny that, but the point is that this is a particularly bad time to resume encouraging it.

And this isn't just about it being brought here either, although of course there is that. But it's also about it being carried from one end of the Americas to the other and spread everywhere in between. If a dangerous variant happens to arise in someone but they are not traveling around so much then there's a much better chance of it dying out, but with everyone going all over the place and meeting thousands of people along the way those variants are allowed to spread. And not just the more dangerous and transmissible variants but the regular old virus itself.  And who is to say that encouraging all of this migration right now is even the best thing for people who are suffering? It may well be that while traveling across two continents and spreading the virus to various people who are also struggling, we end up taking in a hundred thousand people while getting another hundred thousand or more across Latin America killed by the virus who otherwise might have dodged it long enough for them to get vaccinated in a few more months or protected by others who are vaccinated. Remember how this all started? Travelers. And it doesn't matter if you're going to a conference, a ski resort, taking a cruise vacation, or you are traveling because of gang violence or lack of jobs or even lack of food. It matters to us of course but it doesn't matter at all to the virus.

I'm not sure why that's so difficult to understand.

Just like the masks are pretty easy to understand too.

But people often just don't want to admit the obvious when it conflicts with their emotions.

It's not about making it personal like you're afraid some illegal is going to personally infect you or is going to personally take your job away. It's about policy and the big picture. It's about should we have limits based on our needs and safety and how many people we can handle coming in at a time or do those not matter and the only limit is based on how much poverty and hardship there is in the world because if that's the limit then for all practical purposes there is no limit and the kicker is when our kind-hearted policies end up doing more harm than good.

How is illegal immigration different from legal entry in that regard? We aren't turning away everyone from the UK or South Africa or Brazil, are we?

And yes, we clearly have a philosophical break, in that I will let every man woman and child come here and try to pry my job from my hands. I don't need a safe space. I don't need people stopping others from trying to take my job, my house, my food. All people deserve equal opportunity. I'll invoke Ayn Rand if you don't want to hear it from me.

With the ongoing debate about Trump’s immigration ban in mind, it’s worth revisiting Ayn Rand’s thoughts on immigration. Rand never discussed this topic at length, but in the Q&A following her 1973 Ford Hall Forum address, she was asked: “What is your attitude toward immigration? Doesn’t open immigration have a negative effect on a country’s standard of living?” This is her answer:

You don’t know my conception of self-interest. No one has the right to pursue his self-interest by law or by force, which is what you’re suggesting. You want to forbid immigration on the grounds that it lowers your standard of living — which isn’t true, though if it were true, you’d still have no right to close the borders. You’re not entitled to any “self-interest” that injures others, especially when you can’t prove that open immigration affects your self-interest. You can’t claim that anything others may do — for example, simply through competition — is against your self-interest. But above all, aren’t you dropping a personal context? How could I advocate restricting immigration when I wouldn’t be alive today if our borders had been closed? (Ayn Rand Answers: The Best of Her Q&A, edited by Robert Mayhew, p. 25.)

[TheDrake]

Let's see ya weigh in on this one, cherry.

Abbott won't test migrants for covid

Federal officials asked Texas to assist with this issue, Abbott said Thursday, but he refused to help because testing and quarantining migrants is the federal government’s job (the governor’s office did not clarify the exact type of help he was asked to provide).

[rightleft22]

I'll invoke Ayn Rand if you don't want to hear it from me.

My understanding was that that Ayn Rand distanced her philosophy from that of the "Libertarian" political philosophy which she felt distorted her views.
I found it interesting that the first Ayn Rand first adherents were the left 'hippies' movement and latter followed by right capitalism "corporations are people" movement.

Its seems when it comes to Libertarian philosophy people preferer to cherry pick the ideals they prefer to match their right or left leanings. In my opinion, as I think Rand acknowledged, the cherry picking as made any Libertarian label meaningless at best if not absurd. 

[cherrypoptart]

I already opined that it looks like Abbot has transformed into one of those anti-maskers who seems intent on just letting the virus spread virtually unchecked, like trying to stop it is going against the will of God. I was impressed with him when relatively early on he went for the mask mandate and can't help but wonder why he is losing his mind now. It almost looks like he's trying to undermine Biden by causing a virus surge. And again, there is no reason why a full open can't also mean the mask mandate stays in place.

His rationale though is probably that this is Biden's baby, as it were. If the Feds want to open the border, against the express wishes of Texas as evidenced by Paxton's lawsuit, then the Feds need to take responsibility for it, and pay for it, and provide the personnel to do it.

https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/news/releases/ag-paxton-sues-biden-administration-demanding-immediate-halt-unlawful-deportation-freeze

Biden wants an open borders policy with his freeze on deportations so Biden should pay for it. Biden had some nerve asking Texas to ante up for his own gamble with the lives of Texas citizens.

[TheDrake]

Got it. So it's not about the pandemic for you, its about scoring political points and keeping out those dirty foreigners.

[DJQuag]

> Wayward Son

"You're afraid that some illegal immigrant might give you the virus?"

I mean I've explained it before so the problem is encouraging these mass migrations right now the way Biden is doing is the exact opposite of what the scientists and healthcare professionals say we need to do to combat the virus. I thought those were the people we were supposed to be listening to but apparently we just ignore them when their advice is politically incorrect just like the BLM protests. Now of course I'm opposed to illegal immigration anyway, and abuse of the asylum claims system as well, and I don't deny that, but the point is that this is a particularly bad time to resume encouraging it.

And this isn't just about it being brought here either, although of course there is that. But it's also about it being carried from one end of the Americas to the other and spread everywhere in between. If a dangerous variant happens to arise in someone but they are not traveling around so much then there's a much better chance of it dying out, but with everyone going all over the place and meeting thousands of people along the way those variants are allowed to spread. And not just the more dangerous and transmissible variants but the regular old virus itself.  And who is to say that encouraging all of this migration right now is even the best thing for people who are suffering? It may well be that while traveling across two continents and spreading the virus to various people who are also struggling, we end up taking in a hundred thousand people while getting another hundred thousand or more across Latin America killed by the virus who otherwise might have dodged it long enough for them to get vaccinated in a few more months or protected by others who are vaccinated. Remember how this all started? Travelers. And it doesn't matter if you're going to a conference, a ski resort, taking a cruise vacation, or you are traveling because of gang violence or lack of jobs or even lack of food. It matters to us of course but it doesn't matter at all to the virus.

I'm not sure why that's so difficult to understand.

Just like the masks are pretty easy to understand too.

But people often just don't want to admit the obvious when it conflicts with their emotions.

It's not about making it personal like you're afraid some illegal is going to personally infect you or is going to personally take your job away. It's about policy and the big picture. It's about should we have limits based on our needs and safety and how many people we can handle coming in at a time or do those not matter and the only limit is based on how much poverty and hardship there is in the world because if that's the limit then for all practical purposes there is no limit and the kicker is when our kind-hearted policies end up doing more harm than good.

I'm not saying that in some ways, you might not be right.

However.

Everything you write around here makes you sound wildly xenophobic. Probably not the right phobia, but for whatever reason you always, always, zero right in on how bad the migrants are. Covid has given you a talking point but you've been talking the same spiel since they made you switch your name from LibDisembowler.

I'm the first person to stick up for a poor American worker but honest to God your obvious fixation makes it so very easy to dismiss whatever valid viewpoints you're looking to share. Have you ever considered that?

[cherrypoptart]

It's really about the choice between order and chaos. If we want more immigrants then we should just raise the limit on the number of people who can legally immigrate. There are people who have been waiting for years to come here legally so how does it make any sense to make them keep waiting while we let millions more just skip ahead of them? We're rewarding people for breaking the law and punishing the people who obey the law.

In the Dreamer amnesty proposals is there anything that allows the people waiting to come here legally, who already have all their documents in order and are just waiting their turn in their home countries like they are supposed to do, to come here also? Of course not. Why not?

And even Biden and his administration say that even though people should come they shouldn't come right now. He is encouraging the very thing he knows is the wrong thing to be happening right now. He's saying one thing but doing what he knows will lead to the exact opposite result. It looks a lot like insanity.

We see the same type of results with defund the police efforts for instance where an anti-gun crime task force was disbanded because the results of its efforts appeared racist and then of course murders using guns skyrocketed. It's just anarchy and chaos. That's what's being promised and that's what's being delivered. And that's what I'm against. It's like you can't even want law and order anymore because if you do that's racist. I'm just not looking forward to living with anarchy and that's where we seem to be headed.

[cherrypoptart]

It's going to be like it was with the communist countries. Russia, China, Vietnam. They see a problem but their solutions make it many times worse, and they are too arrogant to ever admit that they were wrong and change direction so they just double down and double down. Maybe decades later another generation will say okay that's enough we don't want to live like this anymore after the idiots who destroyed their countries die off of old age but I don't want to wait that long. The damage being done is blaringly obvious right now so now is the time to stop doing it. Back then they'd just use accusations of "capitalist pig" to shut anyone down who told them, correctly as history demonstrated, that they were being foolish and their great plans would only lead to ruin, and the only difference is now they just call you a racist instead.

With Covid on a border with a great influx of people right now, even the administration says that's dangerous and it's not what they want to happen, but it's what they are causing anyway. It doesn't take a genius, and it doesn't even take a racist, to see that this doesn't make sense and the odds of it turning out for the best aren't good.

[DJQuag]

The answer there is that we should make it easier for the people playing by the rules to get in.

It's not a matter of space, it's a matter of intent.

An astonishingly high amount of empty property is held by the government. There is room.

But what about the public facilities being overwhelmed?

Dude, any person willing to walk across untold miles of jungle or desert, I'm totally willing to let them in. They have a vision and a purpose in life, and they're willing to put forth effort to achieve it. Why wouldn't we want those types of people?

Take those people and train them to make up the difference in facilities. Easy.

[msquared]

That is why I am surprised that Republicans do not support more immigration from Latin countries.  They would seem to be a very good fit for what they stand for.  Family, hard work, religion.

I would say if the Repubs were not following the racist part of the party by being against anyone brown entering the country, they would win 75% of the Latin vote.

[DJQuag]

That is why I am surprised that Republicans do not support more immigration from Latin countries.  They would seem to be a very good fit for what they stand for.  Family, hard work, religion.

I would say if the Repubs were not following the racist part of the party by being against anyone brown entering the country, they would win 75% of the Latin vote.

Totally.

You can see it now with the expatriate Cuban vote in Florida.

At some point the R's had their core values - which you mentioned above - and then they saw an opportunity for extra votes so they went all in on anti-immigrant fervor.

Unfortunately for them the streams have crossed and dogs and cats playing together did not, in fact, turn out to be good thing. (Ghostbusters.)

[msquared]

Almost a year ago Dr Fauci said it was going to get worse and Trump said it would be gone, like a miracle, by Easter.  I guess we know now who knew what they were talking about.  Over half a million dead. All because Trump wanted to down play the pandemic.

[LetterRip]

The Cuban immigrants vote Republican because they want Cuba punished for the revolution that removed them from power and confiscated some of their wealth.  Claiming it has something to do with other Republican 'values' is ignoring this reality.  They are single issue voters.

[TheDrake]

The Cuban immigrants vote Republican because they want Cuba punished for the revolution that removed them from power and confiscated some of their wealth.  Claiming it has something to do with other Republican 'values' is ignoring this reality.  They are single issue voters.

That's quite the blanket statement. There is a hardcore Florida based subset of Cuban-Americans that do indeed fall that way.

Nationwide, 58% of Cuban registered voters say they affiliate with or lean toward the Republican Party, while 38% identify with the Democratic Party or lean Democratic

I also think equally important as "punishing Cuba" is also avoiding anything that even hints at Socialism because they are very worried about anything that would make the US more like the Cuba they fled.

Finally there are very few Cuban American voters who were actually adults in the Bautista regime. They are probably far more motivated by continuing violations of human rights that may affect family that remains in Cuba.

[TheDrake]

More than 80% of intensive care unit beds are occupied in the capitals of 25 of Brazil's 27 states, Fiocruz said.

Experts warn that the highly contagious variant in Brazil may have knock-on effects in the region and beyond.

"Brazil is a threat to humanity," Fiocruz epidemiologist Jesem Orellana told AFP news agency.

The country has recorded more than 266,000 deaths and 11 million cases since the pandemic began.

It has the second highest number of deaths in the world after the US and the third highest number of confirmed cases.

Despite this, President Jair Bolsonaro has consistently opposed quarantine measures and expert advice on fighting coronavirus.

Bolsonaro tells Brazilians to 'stop whining' as deaths spike

Scientists are concerned that Brazil has almost become a "natural laboratory" - where people can see what happens when coronavirus goes relatively unchecked.

Some warn the country is now a breeding ground for new variants of the virus, unhindered by effective social distancing and fuelled by vaccine shortages.

That's because the longer a virus circulates in a country, the more chances it has to mutate - in this case giving rise to P1.

Scientists say it is partly the spread of P1 around Brazil that is behind the current devastating upsurge in infections.

Hey, but at least their local businesses got to stay open, and they kept their mask freedom.

BBC

[msquared]

Getting my first shot today. The wife is getting hers as well.

[msquared]

We both got the shot yesterday. We both had Covid early in the year (me very late Dec to early Jan, my wife a week later).  Today we both have tenderness at the shot location. My wife is really tired and a bit achy.  I have a low level headache and low level body aches all over.  Not too terrible over all, but glad I can work from home today.

[DJQuag]

I got the Astra Zenaca shot in early February as a front line worker, only symptom for me was soreness in the arm. Which tends to happen when you're stabbed in a bundle of muscle.

Second shot is 31st of this month.

[msquared]

That long?  We got the Pfizer and our second shot is in middle of  April. So hopefully by the end of April we can have dinner with the in laws again. 

Ohio, where I live, just announced that by the end of March everyone will be allowed to sign up for the shot. That means by Memorial Day all of the family should be through the protocol and we can have a small cook out at my place.

[DJQuag]

That long?  We got the Pfizer and our second shot is in middle of  April. So hopefully by the end of April we can have dinner with the in laws again. 

Ohio, where I live, just announced that by the end of March everyone will be allowed to sign up for the shot. That means by Memorial Day all of the family should be through the protocol and we can have a small cook out at my place.

I'm in the UK, seems like they took the route of getting as many people as possible the first shot for that sweet 65 percent immunity before switching over to the second one giving 95.

Tbf even one shot has shown a nassive potential in reducing the seriousness of infection even if you do catch it.

[TheDrake]

I am now qualified to be in the official waiting line in Texas, since I'm over 50. It appears I'll be waiting for a while based on current Texas vaccination rates. Health department is supposed to email me when it is my turn.

Thank you for your interest in receiving the COVID-19 vaccine during this current phase of distribution.

You will receive an email when it is your turn to book an appointment. Please monitor your email for an email invitation from one of the participating healthcare providers.

So maybe better than the free for all that's happening in some states, but maybe a factor in why Texas is slower? Either way, I like being on a list even if it takes a while.

[msquared]

Trump has finally said people should get the vaccine. And that his supporters should get it.  If they want. Their choice.  Better than what  he has said, or not said.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/m/79c904b4-d632-3c4f-aef5-49b45fd83ade/trump-says-he-recommends.html

[oldbrian]

Msquared:

we can have a small cook out at my place.

Woohoo!  OrneryCon2021!

[msquared]

Did you come to one of the old OrneryCon's?  I have not done that in years.

[oldbrian]

the first or second.  Waaaay back when.

[TheDrake]

Trump has finally said people should get the vaccine. And that his supporters should get it.  If they want. Their choice.  Better than what  he has said, or not said.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/m/79c904b4-d632-3c4f-aef5-49b45fd83ade/trump-says-he-recommends.html

Isn't it likely that he's doing that because it's hard for him to take credit for a vaccine that over 50% of his followers refuse to take? Wasn't Warp Speed great? Who cares, its just the flu, we don't need it.

[msquared]

100 million vaccines given in 58 days.  I wonder if we will hit 200 million in the 100 days?

[oldbrian]

huh, that funny.  Just last week Sean Hannity was saying how we would never hit the '100 million in 100 days' target now that Biden has slowed down the finely tuned machine Trump left him.

[msquared]

I wonder how many talking heads on Fox have gotten the vaccine?

Now another question.

At what point do we start really reopening? What percentage of the population vaccinated?  What level of illness, hospitalization and death rate will be acceptable? 

I mean there has to be some level? We keep open in flu seasons where thousands die every year.