Author Topic: coronavirus  (Read 675218 times)

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4500 on: April 20, 2022, 09:32:21 PM »
yossarian22c

"So are masked settings not more sanitary than unmasked settings in your opinion?"

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https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10.1377/forefront.20200508.769108/full/

"First, most Americans in 1918 misunderstood the purpose of wearing a mask. The primary purpose of wearing a mask is not to prevent a healthy person from getting sick, but rather to prevent people already infected from contaminating others through casual contact. The #masks4all movement has adopted an effective slogan that should be circulated as widely as possible: “My mask protects you. Your mask protects me.”

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So yeah masked settings would have less covid floating around in the air because the asymptomatic infected people would keep more of their covid to themselves.

On the one hand the masks do work better as source control but on the other hand for those saying if you want to wear a mask then wear a mask, we are fortunate now to have good quality masks available so theoretically people might be able to protect themselves from the hordes of maskless infectoids now sharing their space. It was cringeworthy though seeing the reaction of people to not having to wear masks on flights suddenly throwing them off, shouting, singing, laughing, and spreading all their virions far and wide in a crowded confined space with poor ventilation. Do people really not get it or are they just being ornery on purpose?

But all that is beside the point of whether or not the CDC was given nationwide mando-masking power by Congress already. There's an argument to made that even if it was, Congress by refusing to say it has that power right now even in the middle of a pandemic has nullified it and also if Congress refuses to give the CDC that power now in the middle of a pandemic it doesn't make sense that when it was handing out CDC powers way back when it intended to do so at that time either.

People like to champion democracy until it doesn't go their way. I don't always like the results either but we need to live within the system. Even if it kills us.

Mynnion

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4501 on: April 21, 2022, 06:12:58 AM »
Quote
The judge does make a good point though about the law. Just because something like masks is absolutely necessary to keep hundreds of thousands of people from dying and millions from getting sick doesn't necessarily mean the CDC is the governmental entity with the authority to issue a nationwide mandate.

Looks like the judge purposely missed the last part of the statute at least assuming the Surgeon General issued the order with the CDC.  From Section 361 of the 1944 Public Health Service Act.  It seems to me the "and Other Measures" would include a mask mandate.

The Surgeon General,[44] with the approval of the Secretary, is authorized to make and
enforce such regulations as in his judgment are necessary to prevent the introduction,
transmission, or spread of communicable diseases from foreign countries into the States or
possessions, or from one State or possession into any other State or possession. For
purposes of carrying out and enforcing such regulations, the Surgeon General may provide
for such inspection, fumigation, disinfection, sanitation, pest extermination, destruction of
animals or articles found to be so infected or contaminated as to be sources of dangerous
infection to human beings, and other measures, as in his judgment may be necessary.45
 

msquared

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4502 on: April 21, 2022, 07:27:43 AM »
I think I read somewhere that this judge was one of the least qualified judges ever approved or nominated (Trump judge). She was rated as unqualified by the ABA.

Crunch

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4503 on: April 21, 2022, 08:15:58 AM »
I think I read somewhere that this judge was one of the least qualified judges ever approved or nominated (Trump judge). She was rated as unqualified by the ABA.

She has essentially the same qualifications as Elena Kagan. Maybe you should start reading more informative stuff.

Crunch

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4504 on: April 21, 2022, 08:17:06 AM »
Quote
So yeah masked settings would have less covid floating around in the air because the asymptomatic infected people would keep more of their covid to themselves.

How much less? Come on somebody, help us walk through this.

Mynnion

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4505 on: April 21, 2022, 08:27:29 AM »
Quote
How much less? Come on somebody, help us walk through this.

Not that this has not been covered many times but if you are interested here is an article from JAMA.  Feel free to post information from a reliable source that counter this.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2776536



cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4506 on: April 21, 2022, 09:19:05 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM4-lZmL_lA

I thought this was pretty much spot on.

Obviously, better masks offer better protection but any mask is better than none and for all of them source control is stronger than respiratory protection. Your mask protects me and mine protects you and all that. If you're the only person wearing a mask then your protection is much more likely to fail than if everyone around you was wearing a mask too. It's more likely to get overwhelmed by the constant battering of trillions of virion attackers all looking to break into your body and set up clone factories. So for everyone not wearing a mask:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1TTc_UUbuI

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4507 on: April 21, 2022, 09:27:57 AM »
Mynnion

"... as to be sources of dangerous
infection to human beings, and other measures, as in his judgment may be necessary."

Yeah, the "other measures" is an argument to be made. I don't know how good it is but it's worth a shot I suppose. If it was up to me I'd let the masks slide under the other measures wording and if Congress doesn't like it then they can always say that no, the other measures don't include masks on public transportation. But obviously I'm biased and pro-life, or maybe anti-Covid.

But I can see the other side too. If masks then what else? Can you be forced to wash your hands with soap or hand sanitizer before getting on a flight or bus? I mean sure I support it like masks but does it need to be a strictly enforced law for public health? Will they have an attendant in all the restrooms at airports and bus stations to stop the people who try to walk out without washing their hands? Or at restaurants even?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f27Yzpz7cMg

rightleft22

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4508 on: April 21, 2022, 09:54:50 AM »
Quote
Your mask protects me and mine protects you and all that.

When the topic of masks come up I like to ask people the following question. Ten people in a room with one mask, one person is contagious. Who do you want to be wearing the mask?
Most will say the contagious person. What happens is no one puts on the mask. Half leave the room infected and 1 ends up in hospital.

A big reason people want the mask mandates to end is that they don't believe they will be the contagious person.

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4509 on: April 21, 2022, 12:19:25 PM »
This has got to be about the dumbest article I've ever read:

https://www.city-journal.org/the-failed-covid-policy-of-mask-mandates

So according to what many readers might take away from this article, it doesn't matter if you wear a mask or not. I'm calling nonsense on that.

Maybe in the grand scheme things played out the way they did because too many people didn't wear their masks the way they should have. They let their guards down one way or another, at one time or another.

My question would be this. So are my chances of getting Covid exactly the same if I always go around everywhere maskless compared to if I always double N-95 mask with goggles indoors?

By my calculations and my own experience, there is a huge difference there in probability of getting infected, like the maximum possible difference in probability, like 100% chance of getting infected if I'd gone around the last two years everywhere maskless  compared to a 0% probability doing what I did and double N-95 masking with goggles anytime and every time I was indoors except at home.

If everyone had done what I did, and I understand not everyone can, but if everyone had this thing would have been over a long time ago.

For instance, this article is probably counting mask compliance as eating in a restaurant with your mask on while you go to your table and taking it off to eat while you chat and spread Covid to everyone else there. That may have complied with the mask rules but it didn't comply with the way Covid spreads. I still support my restaurants but only with curbside pickup, drive thru, or if I have to go inside for carryout I'm suited up and good to go.

You don't even need to do an experiment. It's just common sense. Two church services. One with everyone masked. One with no one masked. Ten people have Covid at each service with one superspreader. So when the service ends the same number of people will be infected in each? Ridiculous. This article is the worst sort of lie, the one that tricks people into getting themselves killed.

I've got nothing personal against the people who purposefully went around having unprotected sex because they actually wanted to get AIDS, what they called bug chasers, but this is no different from that. It's saying just give up, give in, relax, enjoy yourself, and go ahead and get yourself infected. So how's that working out for almost 1 million dead Americans?

This is something you see in dysfunctional organizations, where large numbers of people purposeful do things half-assed and as messed up as they can get away with just to prove they don't work.

And this article mentioned Japan's covid spike as proof that masks don't work. More nonsense. I just looked at their spike and they got up to daily deaths in the very low hundreds and now they're back into the dozens and that's after years of having extremely low death rates, less than 30k so far. You run the numbers on that and it looks like masks work very well indeed, thank you very much.

rightleft22

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4510 on: April 21, 2022, 12:24:03 PM »
Quote
So according to what many readers might take away from this article, it doesn't matter if you wear a mask or not. I'm calling nonsense on that.

I believe this is due to most people thinking that the main point of the masks is to protect, no 100% prevent, them from getting infected vice a reduction of risk to protect others from them if they are infected.

Its also clear that most people do not understand the scientific method, statistics, probability and variable management.

Bill Maher is a exampled. Because the vaccine (developed for the original strain) hasn't stopped everyone person vaccinated from getting infected the Administration lied about that. Even though it was clear that once Corvid started to mutate that variable change expectations.
He argues that because masks arn't 100% effective in preventing a person from getting infected, and that their were some pretty absurd masking policies,  masks don't work. And besides the real problem isn't corvid but people who don't take care of themselves - the obese. Masking in schools foolish because kids arn't in much danger from covid. That 5 year old Jonny is worried about passing on a infection to his grandparents or sick parent... well that is a extra variable that complicates things to much. Either or, 100% or nothing.

Those that listen to Bill moving over to the camp of 'well we just going to have to live with it to bad for those that die, nothing we can do'. Any personal sacrifice, even simple wearing of masks on airplanes to much to ask. The exercise of 'freedom' = Frack the other person, as long as I'm good.

I wonder if the next pandemic primary impacts children if we would change our attitudes about being in this together. I'm not very optimistic

Fenring

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4511 on: April 21, 2022, 12:49:57 PM »
Those that listen to Bill moving over to the camp of 'well we just going to have to live with it to bad for those that die, nothing we can do'. Any personal sacrifice, even simple wearing of masks on airplanes to much to ask. The exercise of 'freedom' = Frack the other person, as long as I'm good.

I think you're being a bit hard on Maher, just because he isn't towing the extreme covid-compliance line. He's frustrated about a number of things, among which are the flip-flopping rhetoric about what the American public can expect. A lot of centrists were willing to go along with the mandates and the vaccines, not so much because they were overly enthusiastic about it, but because they felt it was ok to go along with the program such as it was presented: right or wrong, the U.S. authorities last year were making a song and dance about getting vaccinated and you're good, you've done your duty. At the time the real facts (which any immunologist would know but most people wouldn't) were not mentioned broadly, which is that like the cold virus, the vaccine will be good only for this season, you'll need shots all the time, and even their efficacy will be variable. If they had said that upfront I don't think the reception would have been the same. So you tell a little lie to get everyone on board to take their one big step, get them to do it, and then worry about next season's messaging later. People like Maher don't appreciate that, and I don't blame them. He's always being a left-libertarian anyhow, so in the first place he's cautious about big government telling you what to do and what to think.

Regarding masks, which is the topic of discussion here, I think you'll find it's similar: if the effect is very useful - and more important, temporary - he'd maybe go along with it. But if the proposal upfront was "hey how about you wear a mask in public for the rest of your life" I think he'd be quite clear that there's no way he'd agree to that. And I think most people would feel the same about that particular proposition. That mask usage is lifting somewhat is not surprising: did you really think people would keep doing that for the rest of their lives? This is a bad virus, worse than the flu obviously, but the question is whether it's so bad that you'll compromise your enjoyment of life permanently to try to avoid it. And hey, I got covid masked while in a doctor's office after two vaccines. So at that point should people really be adhering to it like a religion? Yes, it's more effective if the sick people are masked. And yes, the most irresponsible people will likely be the ones who won't mask. There's really no solution to that, and therefore bashing healthy people for being wary of continued mask usage is really barking up the wrong tree, I think. I do tend to agree with those who say that general public health considerations may be more important to focus on than mask use. As you mentioned about obese people (and assume this premise is sound), it would be more effective to try to start a national health craze than it would be to berate people for the next ten years about wearing masks.

ScottF

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4512 on: April 21, 2022, 01:24:51 PM »
Those that listen to Bill moving over to the camp of 'well we just going to have to live with it to bad for those that die, nothing we can do'. Any personal sacrifice, even simple wearing of masks on airplanes to much to ask. The exercise of 'freedom' = Frack the other person, as long as I'm good.

No. You can talk in absolutes like "any personal sacrifice is too much" if it makes you feel better. The world is full to the brim with risks and associated trade-offs that people aren't aligned on - many that affect others beyond themselves. This is merely a disagreement on one particular category.

Positioning masks as some kind of holy cause doesn't make it any more, or less, than that.

yossarian22c

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4513 on: April 21, 2022, 01:37:14 PM »
yossarian22c

"So are masked settings not more sanitary than unmasked settings in your opinion?"

...

So yeah masked settings would have less covid floating around in the air because the asymptomatic infected people would keep more of their covid to themselves.
...

Just curious what good points you thought the judge made since she said masks did could not be included under sanitary measures.

rightleft22

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4514 on: April 21, 2022, 01:51:02 PM »
Quote
I think you're being a bit hard on Maher,
Bill can take it :)

The issue I was pointing out with using Bill as a example is the misunderstanding of the scientific method. Like many he has a preference for the absolute either or vice probability and statistic analyses that Science requires.

He has stated many times that because the vaccine didn't end up protecting people getting infected proving that the powers to be where wrong.   He has made the comment a few times that everything said about Coved has been wrong. Not totally wrong  however without examination it comes with a unspoken suggestion that science isn't worth listening to and for many a justification of being anti-vax. That is not his intent However this tendency to repeat the same message in the same way makes giving him the benefit of the doubt  more difficult

I wonder what Bill would he say to 5 year old Johnny who wants his class to ware a mask as a way to reduce the risk that he get infected and infect his grand father or sick parent?
Bill demands that government solve the obesity problem without context to the political lose lose that such positions tend to take on are that the people are the government. (of the people by the people)

As a aside I have of late be told when engaged in a discussion on things like corvid to do my research. When I point to the local government website that list just the data as it concerns infections numbers, hospitalizations, death rates etc. This is pretty much pure data with some explanation on how the data is collected and broken down in to sub categories such as people who died due to corvid or with corvid and the further other factors like existing health conditions. Their is no speculation on what the data might or might not mean. Just data.

This apparently is not what they mean by research. Its not about the data research is about the feeling that something is right or not and anything associated with government fake. 

rightleft22

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4515 on: April 21, 2022, 02:01:24 PM »
Those that listen to Bill moving over to the camp of 'well we just going to have to live with it to bad for those that die, nothing we can do'. Any personal sacrifice, even simple wearing of masks on airplanes to much to ask. The exercise of 'freedom' = Frack the other person, as long as I'm good.

No. You can talk in absolutes like "any personal sacrifice is too much" if it makes you feel better. The world is full to the brim with risks and associated trade-offs that people aren't aligned on - many that affect others beyond themselves. This is merely a disagreement on one particular category.

Positioning masks as some kind of holy cause doesn't make it any more, or less, than that.

I don't believe in absolutes and should be more careful in how I communicate. In that regard I'm not better at then Bill :( 
When I make a statement like 'Any personal sacrifice, even simple wearing of masks on airplanes to much to ask. ' I tend to be thinking about specific people.

Still I think my point valid - that most people don't really understand the Scientific method.

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4516 on: April 21, 2022, 02:16:44 PM »
yossarian22c

"Just curious what good points you thought the judge made since she said masks did could not be included under sanitary measures."


Looking at effects, I wonder if anyone would have a problem with the CDC regulating, if they existed, cheap and very high quality air filters on aircraft that reduced the amount of covid passengers were exposed to as much as masks do. That's basically what good masks are, except instead of putting them in the aircraft's mechanical ventilation system they are put on the biological ventilation systems of the humans. The effect of the masks especially if they are good masks fitted and worn correctly would be similar to other sanitary measures but the means to get there is different. The rest of it you can do without involving the public so much, or inconveniencing them. That seems to be the rub for a lot of people.

On the other hand, hypothetically, what if there were no asymptomatic Covid carriers?

So everyone who has Covid, you know who they are. There is a symptom there that's easily recognizable. Let's say they get a zig-zag streak of white hair, yeah even if they're bald. Whatever. So now do you ban them from traveling? Do you let them travel with a mask? Do you let them travel as they are with no mask at all knowing they'll infect a bunch of people on the plane and kill either some of them or some of the people they spread it to?

This judge seems to be saying you just let them fly and let the virus fly too and a lot of people seem to be celebrating that "freedom".

Mynnion

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4517 on: April 21, 2022, 04:24:04 PM »
I am currently at a regional airport.  About 50% of TSA were masked and about 20% of travelers.  It will be interesting to see if I see the same mix in Chicago.  My N-95 is firmly in place.

yossarian22c

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4518 on: April 21, 2022, 04:31:42 PM »
yossarian22c

"Just curious what good points you thought the judge made since she said masks did could not be included under sanitary measures."


Looking at effects, I wonder if anyone would have a problem with the CDC regulating, if they existed, cheap and very high quality air filters on aircraft that reduced the amount of covid passengers were exposed to as much as masks do.
...

Airplanes have high quality air filtration. Airports, buses and trains don't.

But I'm really curious, you said the judge made interesting points. But you correctly and fundamentally disagree with her definition of sanitary. I'm curious in what way you think she made good points other than she is an unqualified Trump appointee and the right wing media is trying to defend her shoddy legal reasoning.

rightleft22

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4519 on: April 21, 2022, 04:35:32 PM »
I never felt the airplanes were the issue. unless the guy infected is setting next to you. With the effectiveness of masks reducing over time so your probably hooped.
I suspect the airports them selves are a pretty good petri dish.

Mynnion

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4520 on: April 21, 2022, 04:49:00 PM »
Quote
I never felt the airplanes were the issue. unless the guy infected is setting next to you. With the effectiveness of masks reducing over time so your probably hooped.
I suspect the airports them selves are a pretty good petri dish.

The small regional airport are probably reasonably safe however at airports like O'Hara and Charlotte (yes I fly American) people can be pinned together by large crowds gather to board.  Especially since the regional jets all seem to board around the same time.

rightleft22

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4521 on: April 21, 2022, 05:53:09 PM »
Personally I think masking on public transport and grocery stores and the like still seems like a reasonable response to how things currenlty are
the restaurant masking rules were dumb. 

Mynnion

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4522 on: April 21, 2022, 08:51:05 PM »
I think some of the restaurant masking was fall out from the large number of cases traced to bars and clubs.  Completely agree about public transit and stores.  I don't like wearing a mask but it really isn't a big deal.  I am amazed at the number of stoic "real" men who seem unable to bear it for an hour or so  ::)

Fenring

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4523 on: April 21, 2022, 11:22:50 PM »
I am amazed at the number of stoic "real" men who seem unable to bear it for an hour or so  ::)

There are real world cases where the requirement to wear a mask is not merely annoying but actually creates serious problems. Anyone here wear glasses? I do. If the mask is applied properly there won't be much escape for the breath, and inevitably it seems to go upwards (this is true for N95 as well, which I've worn a few times in the hospital) and fog the glasses. In a venue where you essentially must wear both a mask and glasses it can fog you up randomly, and if you're in winter conditions this will happen frequently. Have fun with that. Another case is again in a winter city, where you may well find it's physically impossible to put the mask on while wearing a hat, scarf, gloves, etc. And you want to put it on prior to entering the bus, establishment, etc. So now you are taking off the hat, gloves, etc (where do these go in the meantime?) while you apply your mask outdoors to then go inside. Likewise if you are handling heavy objects, say carrying suitcases, boxes, or furniture into a place. Now you either have to put it down on the street or else...what? Or what if you have a child in your arms...the list goes on. Sometimes you actually don't have hands free for this and it's actually ridiculous to be finding kooky ways to put it on. I know...I've done it a zillion times already. A little while back I had movers come in, who insisted they could not work masked. Were they right? I told them it was a no-go and sent them away. There were children around plus it was during the Omicron surge, so that was a non-starter. I know other movers were willing so that was a random occurrence, but there is no doubt in my mind that for a mover it's not a fake 'stoic real man' thing to say wearing the mask for a day's hard labor is a problem. I also personally believe that the lack of willingness for people to do restaurant work right now is not just because of whatever government dole they've received, but because of the prospect of (depending on the city) having management or the law require masks for the entirety of a shift. I think some people are just not up for that while on their feet for hours. This last one is a guess since it might be other factors including the big pushback against employers happening now (the 'big walkout' so-called).

It's not so simple as 'hey what's your problem, just put on the mask.' I wear one very frequently in public, however this is not a small issue in many cases. In other cases I am of course glad to have masked people around me, especially during surges, and do find it annoying when people fake-wear the mask in a manner that is clearly an open refusal to do it properly. But I also believe it's a gross overstatement to suggest that mask-wearing is no big deal in general. It's often doable, but that's not the same thing.

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4524 on: April 22, 2022, 02:25:54 AM »
I wonder if asking the Japanese for advice is a possibility. They have super cold areas and they have super hot and humid areas too. Somehow they are making it happen anyway.

For the movers who wouldn't wear masks, one kind of funny thing is that movers in Japan still take off their shoes while doing their business, in and out of the house, dozens of times maybe in a move, and removing their shoes at the door each time. If you were to ask Americans to do that they'd look at you like you just asked them to walk to the Moon. Impossible. Crazy talk. And yet... somehow the Japanese make it look like no big deal after all.

I understand it's uncomfortable, a hassle, inconvenient, and all that. I wonder if there's anything they can tell us that might help. Maybe they have different masks.

https://www.dw.com/en/how-japans-mask-culture-may-have-saved-lives-during-coronavirus/a-55321518

I still think it's interesting, our response over the loss of 3000 American lives on 9-11, how to avenge them we went to war in various countries, spent trillions of dollars, sacrificed thousands of troops, killed I don't even have any idea how many people including thousands of innocents, and I'm sure I don't have to remind anyone of all the drama that ensued. There were calls to turn the whole Middle East into a glass parking lot. People were violently upset and wanted to do something, anything, with the gloves off and no rules barred. But now to save hundreds of thousands of American lives we're so unwilling to do something so simple as wear a mask, something that for the Japanese at least doesn't seem to be the big deal we're making it out to be.

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4525 on: May 03, 2022, 08:05:05 PM »
https://apnews.com/article/covid-science-travel-health-business-3b819aa097b4e642a97d39f606924203

"U.S. health officials on Tuesday restated their recommendation that Americans wear masks on planes, trains and buses, despite a court ruling last month that struck down a national mask mandate on public transportation."

This is good. Maybe it can't be legally enforced but that shouldn't stop the CDC from making their recommendations. Whether people choose to follow it or not may be up to them, but at least they'll know they are in defiance of the CDC and the consequences are on them.

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4526 on: May 27, 2022, 11:52:34 PM »
https://japantoday.com/category/national/kishida-says-foreign-tourists-should-follow-japan-face-mask-rules?

"Japan will ask foreign tourists to wear face masks and follow other precautions against COVID-19 when they visit the country, Prime Minister Fumio Kishida said Friday.

Kishida's statement came a day after he said Japan will open its borders to foreign tourists for the first time in about two years, starting from June 10 for those on package tours with guides and fixed itineraries, amid receding fears over the coronavirus.

"We must have them follow Japanese rules of wearing face masks," Kishida said in a session of the House of Representatives Budget Committee."

---------------------------------------------

Meanwhile in America we've decided, depending on your point of view, on either Mission Accomplished against Covid with total victory or we just completely give up with total capitulation.

Pretty much nobody in our government on either side is talking about it anymore. Certainly not our President and after all the earlier drama. It looks like 300 Americans are still dying every day which would be over 100k a year. Good enough to move on and put it all behind us?

LetterRip

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4527 on: May 28, 2022, 12:43:39 PM »
Pretty much nobody in our government on either side is talking about it anymore. Certainly not our President and after all the earlier drama. It looks like 300 Americans are still dying every day which would be over 100k a year. Good enough to move on and put it all behind us?

They are choosing to die.  We made every effort to get everyone vaccinated.  If they aren't vaccinated and boosted, then it was a decision that they made (with the exception of children who aren't vaccine eligible - which is still being worked on; and those who are for some reason prevented from getting vaccinated).  There isn't significant risk to anyone else.  Those who want to take extra precaution (such as myself) can wear a mask in public.

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4528 on: May 30, 2022, 08:19:31 AM »
"They are choosing to die."

I wouldn't put it quite that way but in any case it used to be the overwhelming majority of people dying whereas now it's not. Still the majority, but no longer the almost all of them as more and more of the vaccinated are dying too.

https://www.pressherald.com/2022/04/29/covid-deaths-no-longer-overwhelmingly-among-unvaccinated/?utm_source=ourcommunitynow&utm_medium=web

"WASHINGTON — Unvaccinated people accounted for the overwhelming majority of deaths in the United States throughout much of the coronavirus pandemic. But that has changed in recent months, according to a Washington Post analysis of state and federal data...

The vaccinated made up 42% of fatalities in January and February during the highly contagious omicron variant’s surge, compared with 23% of the dead in September, the peak of the delta wave, according to nationwide data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention analyzed by The Post. The data is based on the date of infection and limited to a sampling of cases in which vaccination status was known.

As a group, the unvaccinated remain far more vulnerable to the worst consequences of infection – and are far more likely to die – than people who are vaccinated, and they are especially more at risk than people who have received a booster shot.

“It’s still absolutely more dangerous to be unvaccinated than vaccinated,” said Andrew Noymer, a public health professor at the University of California at Irvine who studies COVID-19 mortality. “A pandemic of – and by – the unvaccinated is not correct. People still need to take care in terms of prevention and action if they became symptomatic.”

A key explanation for the rise in deaths among the vaccinated is that COVID-19 fatalities are again concentrated among the elderly.

Nearly two-thirds of the people who died during the omicron surge were 75 and older, according to a Post analysis, compared with a third during the delta wave. Seniors are overwhelmingly immunized, but vaccines are less effective and their potency wanes over time in older age groups.

Experts say they are not surprised that vaccinated seniors are making up a greater share of the dead, even as vaccine holdouts died far more often than the vaccinated during the omicron surge, according to the CDC. As more people are infected with the virus, the more people it will kill, including a greater number who are vaccinated but among the most vulnerable.

The bulk of vaccinated deaths are among people who did not get a booster shot, according to state data provided to The Post. In two of the states, California and Mississippi, three-quarters of the vaccinated senior citizens who died in January and February did not have booster doses. Regulators in recent weeks have authorized second booster doses for people over the age of 50, but administration of first booster doses has stagnated.

Even though the death rates for the vaccinated elderly and immunocompromised are low, their losses numbered in the thousands when cases exploded, leaving behind blindsided families. But experts say the rising number of vaccinated people dying should not cause panic in those who got shots, the vast majority of whom will survive infections. Instead, they say, these deaths serve as a reminder that vaccines are not foolproof and that those in high-risk groups should consider getting boosted and taking extra precautions during surges.

“Vaccines are one of the most important and longest-lasting tools we have to protect ourselves,” said California State Epidemiologist Erica Pan, citing state estimates showing vaccines have shown to be 85% effective in preventing death.

“Unfortunately, that does leave another 15,” she said."

------------------------------------------------------------

But by all means, let's just throw all caution to the winds and see what happens.

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4529 on: May 30, 2022, 08:36:46 AM »
The story goes on to highlight some vaccinated people who let their guard down or were around people who just didn't care anymore and they died even though it's pretty much only the unvaccinated who are supposed to be doing that now. It's kind of like how people thought AIDS was basically just a gay and IV drug user disease. I mean everyone does know at some level that anyone can get it but that's supposed to be exceedingly rare. Except it wasn't. Not for AIDS and not for the vaccinated with Covid. It's a lot more common than the let the good times roll crowd wants anyone to believe or maybe even admit to themselves, like it's going to harsh their vibe or something.

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4530 on: May 30, 2022, 08:49:11 AM »
As an aside, for anyone still taking the virus seriously, for instance if you have an immunocompromised person in your trust circle and you understand the vaccines won't stop you from infecting them and so you're up for some double N-95 masking with goggles, I finally did find what I think are some pretty good goggles. I was looking for something that doesn't make me look like a total freak, like literally having people laugh when they see me as has happened a few times, not harshly mind you, not like pointing and laughing, but just as a sudden involuntary reaction that I can't really blame them for, but still provides a total airproof seal with pretty good anti-fog capabilities, the best I've come up with so far are these:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072JGVPLC?tag=dotdashvwellf-20&linkCode=ogi&th=1&ascsubtag=4158580%7Cn3e01240c8e9547c49f94bb73185259b412%7CB01LNAU866

I went with the dark black so with a ballcap on I'm hoping they almost look like sportswear sunglasses. At least so far there haven't been as many laughing outbursts and weird looks.


LetterRip

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4531 on: May 30, 2022, 11:20:31 PM »
Cherry,

good for you 'walking the walk' - I still wear a mask nearly any time I go indoors for shopping trips, though I have eaten at restaurants with friends a few times without a mask.  I don't really have anyone who I'm likely to expose who is at serious risk if I do get sick, so I'm mostly just limiting my own risk to the degree I can reasonably do so without being antisocial, etc. For eyes I just wear regular glasses - doesn't complete block exposure but should shield well from droplets (reminds me of a funny quote - "I used to think I had a strong immune system, but then I started teaching and realized that I didn't, I just wasn't around the kind of people who sneezed directly in your eyeball.")
« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 11:25:39 PM by LetterRip »

Wayward Son

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4532 on: May 31, 2022, 06:35:07 PM »
We have some very good N95 masks that fit nicely around our faces.  But the seam is horizontal, so it looks like we have these white bills over our mouths.

I think I will be sorely tempted if anyone laughs to ask them "What are laughing at?" in my best Donald Duck voice. :)

TheDrake

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4533 on: June 01, 2022, 03:47:57 PM »
This almost could have qualified for the Trump looses (sic) again thread.

Quote
Last year, Staley pleaded guilty to one count of importation contrary to law, admitting that he worked with a Chinese supplier to try to smuggle into the United States a barrel that he believed contained over 26 pounds of hydroxychloroquine powder by mislabeling it as “yam extract.” According to court documents, Staley also suggested this mislabeling technique to another supplier who declined, telling Staley, “sorry, we must do it legally.”

Staley admitted that he intended to sell the hydroxychloroquine powder in capsules as part of his business venture selling COVID-19 “treatment kits” in March and April 2020, at the beginning of the global pandemic. According to sentencing documents, Staley also solicited investors for his scheme, promising one that he could “triple your money in 90 days.”

Selling fraudulent products? Check. Unfounded claims about hydroxychloroquine? Check. Cheating investors? Check.

Quote
Griffin, a San Diego trial attorney, has launched a defense that claims government hypocrisy, directly citing Trump’s prime time promotion of the drug. He also questions why the Department of Justice is handling the case as a felony rather than a civil matter or dispute for a state regulatory board.

Failure to take responsibility? Check.

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4534 on: June 02, 2022, 08:34:42 AM »
As I suspected...

Pretty good article here as it articulates exactly what I've been thinking was happening.

https://news.yahoo.com/why-masks-mandates-havent-122043224.html?.tsrc=374

"The idea that masks work better than mask mandates seems to defy logic. It inverts a notion connected to Aristotle’s writings: that the whole should be greater than the sum of the parts, not less.

The main explanation seems to be that the exceptions often end up mattering more than the rule. The coronavirus is so contagious that it can spread during brief times when people take off their masks, even when a mandate is in place.

Airplane passengers remove their masks to have a drink. Restaurant patrons go maskless as soon as they walk in the door. Schoolchildren let their masks slide down their faces. So do adults: Research by the University of Minnesota suggests that between 25-30% of Americans consistently wear their masks below their nose.

“Even though masks work, getting millions of people to wear them, and wear them consistently and properly, is a far greater challenge,” Steven Salzberg, a biostatistician at Johns Hopkins University, has written. Part of the problem, Salzberg said, is that the most effective masks also tend to be less comfortable. They cover a larger part of a person’s face, fit more snugly and restrict the flow of more air particles."

--------------------------------------------------------------

Mystery solved. I'm pretty sure I've said as much previously.

Taking a mask off to eat or drink in public indoor places is the same thing as not wearing a mask at all, ever. Okay maybe an overstatement but for all practical purposes not by much, if even at all.

Doesn't matter much anymore though as the vast majority of people aren't wearing masks, ever, anywhere. And while I just heard Dr. Walensky on NPR reiterating the official CDC recommendation that people continue to wear masks, not many people listen to NPR. I saw another story that NPR is sticking to their guns and is still requiring masks for everyone where they work. Good for them. Of course the dumb news story about it made it seem like that was a bad thing. Biden could say something but as usual he licked his finger and put it up into the wind to test the direction and decided not to use what little influence he has to do anything that might be useful.

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/01/1102432937/vaccination-nation-the-not-so-long-odds-of-long-covid

https://nypost.com/2022/05/19/nprs-strict-masking-policy-encourages-coworkers-to-tattle-on-violators/

TheDrake

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4535 on: June 02, 2022, 09:21:13 AM »
Masks in restaurants have always been a silly concept. That's why it was so important to close them entirely during the most dangerous phases. I'm not sure how effective they were in schools, given compliance especially from young children and duration. Plus, kids gotta eat food too. Most people didn't understand the simple concept of taking slack out of the elastic to make it much more difficult for the mask to slip out of place.

I have given up on it, as I almost never see someone with a mask at this point. I have started going to a coffee shop recently, where their employer is clearly still having employees wear masks. This has given me pause about wearing a mask there also out of respect and because it might actually work with others joining in. But I like to sit in the comfy chair and relax, drink, and eat on premises. I could sit on their patio, but even in the morning it is already 80 degrees - which makes a hot coffee less delightful.

yossarian22c

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4536 on: June 02, 2022, 10:29:03 AM »
Masks in restaurants have always been a silly concept. That's why it was so important to close them entirely during the most dangerous phases. I'm not sure how effective they were in schools, given compliance especially from young children and duration. Plus, kids gotta eat food too.  ...

Masks were effective in schools.

https://corporate.dukehealth.org/news/universal-masking-schools-shown-reduce-spread-covid-19

Quote
-- School districts that required masking saw lower rates of COVID-19 transmission within schools last fall compared to those with optional masking policies, according to a study by the ABC Science Collaborative.

Kids are relatively good about following rules in schools. My kids schools did lots of outdoor lunches when the weather allowed.

TheDrake

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4537 on: June 02, 2022, 11:56:09 AM »
Quote
Districts that were fully masked had lower predicted in-school infections per community-acquired infection than districts that had an optional masking policy. Classification of community-acquired and in-school infections were determined by school health staff in collaboration with the local health department.

That seems a pretty dicey prop. I would imagine that communities with mandatory masking in schools probably have other measures in place, and that the reduced spread could be attributed to whether the kids were allowed to do other things outside school. Putting human judgement into the equation, when the people involved wanted to prove that masks were effective. I can't say, but this study doesn't reduce my suspicions about school mask value.

Quote
I'm actually going to tackle this in two parts. First, do masks work? The science is pretty compelling that a high-quality mask - so a respirator like an N95 or a KN94 - they can really protect an individual from infection when worn properly. So if a kid is wearing a good mask, it fits them well and they wear it properly and consistently, there's no reason to think it's not protecting them.

Two - if you're wearing a cloth mask, on the other hand, and, you know, the kid's nose is hanging out of it, that's probably not doing much against a variant as highly transmissible as omicron. But when you ask the question, do studies show that when children wear masks in schools, it helps lower transmission in schools, that's much harder to answer.

NADWORNY: Why is that? Why is it harder to show masks are effective in that sort of, like, real-world setting?

GODOY: Because the kind of study you'd have to conduct to really prove a cause and effect - you know, that it is the masking and nothing else, not community vaccination rates or behaviors, not opening windows, that it is the masking alone that is lowering transmission - that kind of study is extremely difficult to carry out in the real world. I spoke to Noah Haber about this. He's an expert in study design.

The science on masking in schools

yossarian22c

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4538 on: June 02, 2022, 01:30:24 PM »
And if you read one more paragraph in the article you linked to.

Quote
He says the bottom line is that the totality of evidence suggests high-quality masks do help slow transmission in schools, but we may never be able to pin down exactly how much they help.

Emphasis mine. We can't know the exact contribution because you can't do double blind studies with schools where everything is the same except the masks.

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4539 on: June 02, 2022, 01:32:04 PM »
I just went to the Japanese supermarket and everyone was wearing masks so good for them, just like in Japan I hear they have opened the country back up to tourists but they are making it very clear that everyone is expected to wear masks in Japan the way the Japanese do. So it can be done. We just choose not to.

I guess almost everywhere else it's going to be "one-way masking".

---------------------------------------------------------------

"One-Way Masking

The country is probably never going to come to a consensus on masks. They have become yet another source of political polarization. Democrats are more likely to wear masks than Republicans, and Democrats who identify as “very liberal” are more likely to support mandates.

Fortunately, the scientific evidence points to a reasonable compromise. Because masks work and mandates often don’t, people can make their own decisions. Anybody who wants to wear a snug, high-quality mask can do so and will be less likely to contract COVID.

If anything, that approach — one-way masking — is consistent with what hospitals have long done, Doron of Tufts said. Patients, including those sick with infectious diseases, typically have not worn masks, but doctors and nurses have.

“One-way masking is how we have always used them,” she wrote.

The same system can work for COVID outside of hospitals. Wachter, for example, believes that the time for mandates has passed but still wears one at the supermarket, in classrooms, on airplanes and elsewhere. Different people can reasonably make different choices."

https://news.yahoo.com/why-masks-mandates-havent-122043224.html?.tsrc=374

----------------------------------------------------

And I suppose that's going to have to do for the people who want to protect themselves but the problem is in the aggregate, big picture, we're setting ourselves up for a lot of pain if the wrong variant pops out. It's also not good for the hundreds of people still dying every day and the thousands every day who will get long term problems.

TheDrake

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4540 on: June 29, 2022, 04:27:57 PM »
Quote
The Texas Republican senator then went on: "You then have @elmo aggressively advocate for vaccinating children UNDER 5. But you cite ZERO scientific evidence for this." He then links to a press release from his office in which he demands answers from the Food and Drug Administration about its emergency use authorization of the vaccine for kids under 5.

What kind of scientific evidence is he looking for? And does he understand that Sesame Street doesn't cite academic papers?

Here ya go, Teddy.

Quote
Pfizer vaccine: Pfizer enrolled 4,500 children in its clinical trials. For those ages 5 and under, 1,678 children received two doses three weeks apart and then a third dose at least two months after the second dose. The vaccine was well tolerated and there were no new safety issues signaled; the majority of side effects were mild or moderate.

Moderna vaccine: The company enrolled approximately 11,700 children ages 6 months to 12 years in their studies, including 6,700 under 6 years old. All children received two doses of the vaccine, 28 days apart. According to data from the company, the majority of side effects (for the group under 6 years of age) were mild or moderate and mostly reported after the second dose. No new safety concerns were identified.

With both vaccines, there were no cases of myocarditis or pericarditis, conditions that involve inflammation of the heart muscle and surrounding tissue. These conditions are known, but rare, risks for young men who receive the Moderna or Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine.

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4541 on: August 08, 2022, 04:10:14 PM »
Admittedly this is totally speculative but one of my issues with Covid is that we don't know the long term consequences of getting it and one of the rare problems associated with it is vasculitis which Ashton Kutcher apparently suffered a serious bout of with timing remarkably coincident with Covid. One has to wonder if there's a connection. Whether his instance is connected or not, it is accepted that it can be caused by Covid. The point? The point is just that it's another example of how this is not "just the flu". Although it's true that the flu can also cause it, if someone like Ashton got "just the flu" it's hard to imagine he would have picked vasculitis up from it.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-11092441/Ashton-Kutcher-lucky-alive-rare-autoimmune-disorder-left-unable-hear-walk.html


cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4542 on: September 19, 2022, 03:22:59 AM »
Well this is good news, great news... if it's true.

The Pandemic is over.

So says sleepy creepy Joe.

He's never been wrong before so we're in the clear.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/18/politics/biden-pandemic-60-minutes/index.html

"(CNN)President Joe Biden said he believes the Covid-19 pandemic is "over" in an appearance on CBS' "60 Minutes," but acknowledged the US still has a "problem" with the virus that has killed more than 1 million Americans.

"The pandemic is over. We still have a problem with Covid. We're still doing a lot of work on it. It's -- but the pandemic is over," Biden said."

-------------------------------------------------

I guess that explains why I just found a box of perfectly good individually sealed N-95 masks outside a dumpster I regularly check for cool stuff. And before you say, "Ew..." I'll make you aware that I've found perfectly good 50" flat panel tvs with the remotes on top of them beside that dumpster along with the explanation which was a box for a 75" HDTV that was empty, so obviously someone got themselves a nice upgrade. Luxury apartments have their perks. Found a coupe of older smartphones that are still nice for flashlights and bookreaders with no worries about if they get dropped. Found a nice laptop with the case too. Windows 8 but whatever, at least if I get bored of looking at it I'll try to recycle it. Okay sorry for the side track but I disagree that the pandemic is over because we've been through this before and were disappointed, but I could be wrong and this won't be the first time in life I'll be happy to be mistaken.

But anyways... congratulations!

I hope.

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4543 on: September 19, 2022, 03:44:19 AM »
Was just reading more about this and CNN predictably left some stuff out.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/sep/19/biden-says-covid-pandemic-is-over-despite-us-daily-death-toll-in-the-hundreds

The president told CBS’s 60 Minutes: “We still have a problem with Covid. We’re still doing a lotta work on it. But the pandemic is over. If you notice, no one’s wearing masks. Everybody seems to be in pretty good shape. And so I think it’s changing.”

-----------------------------------------

Okay, two things not true there. Relatively few people are wearing masks but to say no one is wearing masks is far from accurate. And everybody doesn't seem to be in pretty good shape with almost five hundred deaths a day. I remember back when it was a hundred a day and we were freaking out. Now it's over well four hundred and no big deal, apparently. And of course, winter is coming. I'm not sure you're allowed to say that anymore with how that whole situation ended, but it was a cautionary tale about how quickly things can totally fall apart especially if you get impatient and try to rush it.

I wouldn't be surprised if that's how Biden figured the pandemic is over. He just looks around and doesn't see that many people wearing masks so a light bulb goes off in his head as he connects masks to covid and therefore no masks means no covid. Brilliant.

https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/23316450/covid-19-death-rate-vaccine-booster-elderly

Contrary to Biden's rosy outlook, here's a more realistic appraisal of the situation. Although the vaccinated die at lower rates than the unvaccinated, a lot of them are still dying and their death rate is rising. I seriously doubt the pandemic is over and this won't be the first time this President celebrated victory too early only to have it all crash and burn.

But even assuming it is winding down, throwing caution to the wind will cause more people to die unnecessarily and will make it take longer to reach whatever equilibrium level of covid we're going to have to live with, and for too many people still die with.

jc44

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4544 on: September 19, 2022, 10:26:57 AM »
Here in the UK, with decent vaccination rates we're in the "it's endemic now - just live (and die) with it" stage, much like flu. I've had my reminder to get my (free) flu & covid jab for free as I'm over 50. Otherwise, precautions are pretty much back to pre-pandemic non-existence. I think when someone says "it's over" these days they mean it has been accepted like car crash or flu deaths. We aren't going to get rid of covid in the foreseeable future, treatment & vaccinations have brought the death toll right down so I guess that pretty much everyone's risk/reward has ended up on the side of "f*ck it".

DJQuag

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4545 on: September 19, 2022, 10:44:17 AM »
I'm in the UK as well, and will be getting my fourth shot soon, since I work in the industry.

Thing is, covid *is* endemic. It *is* like the flu. People are going to get it, and some of them will die, but that's just the same as for influenza. People in their right mind have had the shots, and those who haven't have made their choice. For the rest of us, it'll be a yearly covid vaccine to go with the flu one.

LetterRip

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4546 on: September 19, 2022, 11:06:25 AM »
It was dumb of him to say anything about it at all.  I suspect that he did it because businesses want to force workers back to work and this gives them a bigger stick.

Grant

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4547 on: September 19, 2022, 11:27:03 AM »
The problem of course is that we're in a negative results ooda loop with cause and effects and effects and causes creating a cycle that is not conducive to politics and business. 

It's true that the hospitalization and death rates are extremely low now compared to earlier last winter.  Especially since, in my personal opinion, I suspect that cases are vastly underreported now.  But the results of having a lower hospitalization or mortality rate means less protection, means higher morbidity, means higher mortality. 

1. New strain is not as virulent
2. Low hospitalization and mortality rates
3. People relax, less masking, stop taking boosters, under report, go to work sick
4. Rise in total hospitalizations and deaths

But even with all that, we're just not seeing the total hospitalizations and deaths getting as high as they have in '20, '21, and very early '22.  And people ARE getting sick and it is spreading bad. 

The virus has either weakened or it killed off the people it could, like a fire simply exhausting itself by consuming all the brush. 


yossarian22c

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4548 on: September 19, 2022, 11:51:45 AM »
...
The virus has either weakened or it killed off the people it could, like a fire simply exhausting itself by consuming all the brush.

There is also the fact that most people either suffer less sever infection as a result of a previous exposure and/or vaccination. The virus may be just as virulent as it was before but there is almost no one left without some built up immunity that lessons the impact. What we do know is that omicron is crazy infectious, much more so than flu. So we can expect a significant amount of serious but no life threatening illness to continue.

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4549 on: September 19, 2022, 12:00:33 PM »
I saw some pushback on this being over from various doctors on twitter.

Another point against Biden saying this is that he is again encouraging people who might still be taking precautions to stop, especially with masks just like he did previously before the delta surge.

There are people still taking precautions who are going to die because they stop and some of them stop because they listen to the President spreading dangerous covid misinformation. Some medical experts are also concerned about long covid and we're seeing more and more of that with still more questions than answers about it.

In my opinion, he could at least throw a bone to caution instead of throwing caution to the wind by saying something like get your vaccines of course but if you want to keep masking on top of that, that actually wouldn't be a bad idea. He's basically discouraging masking anymore, saying it's over so throw them away. At least that's how a lot of people will hear and take his comments. It didn't work out well the last time and time will tell if this is one of the times the broken clock is actually correct but if so it's just going to be coincidence and luck.