Author Topic: Trump Response to Covid-19  (Read 12475 times)

DonaldD

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #100 on: March 18, 2020, 03:07:44 PM »
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Basically, anything short of Violent crime is likely to be "catch and release" for the next couple of months.
At the very least, the police should tell the offenders to self-quarantine.

yossarian22c

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #101 on: March 18, 2020, 03:08:35 PM »
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Basically, anything short of Violent crime is likely to be "catch and release" for the next couple of months.
At the very least, the police should tell the offenders to self-quarantine.

Lots of ankle monitors and house arrest.

Crunch

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #102 on: March 18, 2020, 05:28:01 PM »
Remember Trump saying treatment would be free? Well:
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Health system Baylor Scott & White made the decision Tuesday night to waive out-of-pocket fees for patients who have had e-visits with medical professionals prompted by the BS&W COVID-19 questionnaire.

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those who appear to be at risk for COVID-19, based on their symptoms and experiences, won’t be charged for the e-visit whatsoever.

So there's some truth to it. Not as far as some of you may like but definitely not just smoke.

DonaldD

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #103 on: March 21, 2020, 06:59:59 AM »
Washington Post: US intelligence warned Trump in January and February as he dismissed coronavirus threat
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(CNN)President Donald Trump ignored reports from US intelligence agencies starting in January that warned of the scale and intensity of the coronavirus outbreak in China, The Washington Post reported Friday.

Citing US officials familiar with the agencies' reports and warnings, the Post reported that intelligence agencies depicted the nature and global spread of the virus and China's apparent downplaying of its severity, as well as the potential need for government measures to contain it -- while Trump opted to dismiss or simply not address their seriousness.
Putting aside Trump, who 'owns' the intelligence generated by intelligence agencies paid for by a government?

One can debate whether it is the president's responsibility to hide information from 'the markets' with the goal of manipulating them in certain ways, but what rationales exist for hiding information about health risks from the public?

cherrypoptart

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #104 on: March 21, 2020, 07:17:40 AM »
The police are probably also worried about catching it. They will be in close proximity to these people. They'd have to be wearing gloves and in the care they'd have to be wearing masks and the Surgeon General says the masks wouldn't help them anyway.

Crunch

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #105 on: March 21, 2020, 08:11:32 AM »
Washington Post: US intelligence warned Trump in January and February as he dismissed coronavirus threat
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(CNN)President Donald Trump ignored reports from US intelligence agencies starting in January that warned of the scale and intensity of the coronavirus outbreak in China, The Washington Post reported Friday.

Citing US officials familiar with the agencies' reports and warnings, the Post reported that intelligence agencies depicted the nature and global spread of the virus and China's apparent downplaying of its severity, as well as the potential need for government measures to contain it -- while Trump opted to dismiss or simply not address their seriousness.
Putting aside Trump, who 'owns' the intelligence generated by intelligence agencies paid for by a government?

One can debate whether it is the president's responsibility to hide information from 'the markets' with the goal of manipulating them in certain ways, but what rationales exist for hiding information about health risks from the public?
CNN, dude. Might as well quote Alex Jones.

DonaldD

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #106 on: March 21, 2020, 08:27:29 AM »
Don't be an idiot, dude.  It's a direct reference to a Washington Post article behind a pay wall.

Do you dispute the facts, and do you also disparage links I post from Fox because... Fox News?

Good on ya though for using an ad hominem to completely avoid the topic though.  +1

DonaldD

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #107 on: March 21, 2020, 08:38:17 AM »
Here are the two posts, verbatim, as they display one immediately following the other:
Up until recently, essentially everybody outside of the Trump administration was saying just that, that the novel coronavirus is going to be much worse than a seasonal flu.  Now, since the report from London's Imperial College COVID-19 Response Team was published suggesting upwards of 500,000 deaths in the UK and upwards of 2,000,000 deaths in the USA if the countries did nothing to specifically address the pandemic, even the Trump administration and Fox News are accepting that there needs to be a concerted effort to reduce deaths involving case isolation, social distancing of the entire population, household quarantine and school/university closure.

So yes, 2,200,000 dead Americans is way worse than a seasonal flu.

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2,200,000 dead Americans

Anyone truly believe this will happen?

Those 2 posts were followed by these:
Quote from: DonaldD
No.  That was the worst case projection if the USA did nothing as far as mitigation or suppression. What part of "if the countries did nothing to specifically address the pandemic" was unclear?
Quote from: Crunch
So maybe you should make sure you say that when you float the 2.2 million dead. Stop making hysterical comments, that's the point I'm getting at. It's so irresponsible to throw out worst-case scenarios without any context.
To quote Crunch: "SMH".  Just read the actual post to which you are responding.

LetterRip

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #108 on: March 21, 2020, 09:01:40 AM »
Not paywalled here, I think it might be exempt due to the agreement by many news sites that coronavirus related articles are exempt,

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/us-intelligence-reports-from-january-and-february-warned-about-a-likely-pandemic/2020/03/20/299d8cda-6ad5-11ea-b5f1-a5a804158597_story.html

DonaldD

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #109 on: March 21, 2020, 09:26:58 AM »
Hmmm... That link still prompts me to subscribe in order to read the article.

Crunch

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #110 on: March 21, 2020, 09:38:58 AM »
Don't be an idiot, dude.  It's a direct reference to a Washington Post article behind a pay wall.

Do you dispute the facts, and do you also disparage links I post from Fox because... Fox News?

Good on ya though for using an ad hominem to completely avoid the topic though.  +1

It’s CNN and, like Infowars, complete horse*censored*.

I’m not disputing facts, I’m disputing hysteria and the near constant “orange man bad” message you and others focus on.

And I didn’t use an ad hominem, as you just did. You should have gone for poisoning the well. Jesus, as much as you use logical fallacies it seems like you’d get the names of them right.

DonaldD

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #111 on: March 21, 2020, 11:44:11 AM »
a) telling you not to be an idiot is not an ad hominem fallacy, and
b) kudos on posting yet still continuing to avoid the point/topic

Kasandra

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #112 on: March 21, 2020, 01:19:23 PM »
Ignore every lie told by FOX and Limbaugh and their acolytes like Crunch.  You can never win an argument with them because of how they cherry pick facts and deny things that they had previously insisted were true while attacking anyone who held a different view.  Instead, look at how they have influenced their audience as the crisis has developed.  The key indicator for their dishonesty about the coronavirus is that in the last month, as the number of reported cases and deaths has steadily declined, only about 40% of their FOX viewers and Limbaugh listeners now see the pandemic as a serious crisis.  Many people in their audience continue to insist on going out to eat where possible and ignoring self-isolation guidelines.  It's quite possible that there will be far more Republican victims by the time the pandemic finally fades.

The simple bottom line response that people like them (and their acolytes) will sneer at is, it's not a hoax if people say things you don't want to hear.  You'll never get King Donald to respect that, but maybe when the dying ramps up some others will come around.

Crunch

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #113 on: March 21, 2020, 01:45:24 PM »
a) telling you not to be an idiot is not an ad hominem fallacy, and
b) kudos on posting yet still continuing to avoid the point/topic

So what is your point, that intelligence agencies warned of a pandemic and Trump did nothing? That he hid the severity of it from the public?

ScottF

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #114 on: March 21, 2020, 01:48:51 PM »
I don't weigh the lies from FOX and their acolytes any more or less than the other networks. We've created a model that encourages the worst behaviour for all of them.

I don't watch either of them but from the snippets I've seen, Hannity and Maddow may as well been separated a birth but ideologically breastfed from opposite teats.

Kasandra

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #115 on: March 21, 2020, 01:49:49 PM »
Sorry, obvious typo correction:

 
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The key indicator for their dishonesty about the coronavirus is that in the last month, as the number of reported cases and deaths has steadily declined increased, only about 40% of their FOX viewers and Limbaugh listeners now see the pandemic as a serious crisis.

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So what is your point, that intelligence agencies warned of a pandemic and Trump did nothing? That he hid the severity of it from the public?

Thanks for helping make my point.  Rather than graciously concede the truth in what I wrote, you turn it into a challenge that I need to back up things I didn't say.  OTOH, your assertions are absolutely correct.  You still going to restaurants and Orange-Man-God parties?

Crunch

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #116 on: March 21, 2020, 01:51:05 PM »
I was not responding to you. The key was in noticing the source of the quote I addressed. 8)

Kasandra

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #117 on: March 21, 2020, 01:52:21 PM »
I don't weigh the lies from FOX and their acolytes any more or less than the other networks. We've created a model that encourages the worst behaviour for all of them.

I don't watch either of them but from the snippets I've seen, Hannity and Maddow may as well been separated a birth but ideologically breastfed from opposite teats.

Out of idle curiosity, where to CNN, NY Times, Washington Post, Reuters fit into your pantheon of news sources?  If none of them, where do you get news you can trust?

Kasandra

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #118 on: March 21, 2020, 01:57:39 PM »
I was not responding to you. The key was in noticing the source of the quote I addressed. 8)

You made it anyway :).

ScottF

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #119 on: March 21, 2020, 02:00:16 PM »
I actually don't have a goto source, maybe I should. I tend to follow a lot of "independent" (no such thing) thinkers on twitter, as well as the outlets you've mentioned, but again on twitter. I then pick and choose and nurture my bias by drilling into whichever source seems useful or interesting.

TheDeamon

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #120 on: March 21, 2020, 05:01:41 PM »
Going to throw this link out there for people to look at, many of you should find it very useful:

https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-the-hammer-and-the-dance-be9337092b56

wmLambert

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #121 on: March 21, 2020, 05:18:09 PM »
Going to throw this link out there for people to look at, many of you should find it very useful:

https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-the-hammer-and-the-dance-be9337092b56

Within that link it said:
"Do you notice something weird about this list of countries? Outside of China and Iran, which have suffered massive, undeniable outbreaks, and Brazil and Malaysia, every single country in this list is among the wealthiest in the world.

Do you think this virus targets rich countries? Or is it more likely that rich countries are better able to identify the virus?"

More likely, wealthier nations have more travel-related contact with carriers.

TheDeamon

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #122 on: March 21, 2020, 05:44:02 PM »
Going to throw this link out there for people to look at, many of you should find it very useful:

https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-the-hammer-and-the-dance-be9337092b56

Within that link it said:
"Do you notice something weird about this list of countries? Outside of China and Iran, which have suffered massive, undeniable outbreaks, and Brazil and Malaysia, every single country in this list is among the wealthiest in the world.

Do you think this virus targets rich countries? Or is it more likely that rich countries are better able to identify the virus?"

More likely, wealthier nations have more travel-related contact with carriers.

That's my takeaway, more wealth = more travel; More travel = more exposure; More exposure = More infections. It's part of my take-away regarding the Covid-19 outbreak happening in Blaine County, Idaho at present(Sun Valley Ski Resort), they've been an "A List" celebrity ski destination since Union Pacific started promoting it back in the 1930's. Ernest Hemmingway is buried out there, Arnold Schwarzenegger has a vacation home there, so on and so forth. So a lot of the Jet-Set crowd travels in and out of there regularly.

Which is how Blaine County, with only about 1.5% of the State's population, has 19 of the 32 known cases in the state as of last night. Compared to the (greater) Boise Valley area, which comprises more than half of the state's population, only has 5 cases. Idaho has an additional 3 cases in other counties where I know winter tourism is a significant part of the local economy there or in an immediately adjacent area(Jackson Hole, Wyoming; which now has its own Covid-19 cases going on, and also is home to plenty of vacation homes belonging to multi-millionaires; to the point where many who work in Jackson Hole live in Idaho as they cannot afford to live in Jackson... But Sun Valley so far seems to have been hit a LOT harder).
« Last Edit: March 21, 2020, 05:51:18 PM by TheDeamon »

wmLambert

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #123 on: March 21, 2020, 08:04:42 PM »
There have been several posts in this thread alluding to Democrats using the Coronavirus crisis to make political hay. There have also been several apologist replies addressing that, by condemning those who support the assertion and calling it conspiracy theory and basically bad manners.

Pelosi trying to insert abortion language into a pandemic relief bill only exacerbates this thinking. I was thinking about earlier thoughts on why there are Progressive attitudes that may welcome the crisis. If one truly believes the ends justify the means, then there are basic tenets underlying this that shouldn't be ignored. The Left has grown uo believing some pretty heinous things, and has every right to try to bring their ideals to fruition, if they really believe.

What are these roots?

D. H. Lawrence, Aldous Huxley, H. G. Wells, George Bernard Shaw, and Virginia Woolf, were bright lights amongst the Left, unarguably successful talents and admired thinkers. What they were taught as children is what caused their beliefs they have published. But since they were bright lights in an earlier era, they spoke plainly and honestly. Their words are more blunt than present day celebrity pols, but more clearly define what the present day Left-wing/atheistic movement is all about.

These spotlighted intellectuals were ultra-elite Progressives who made no bones about their innate superiority over the intellectually turgid who can't handle knowledge even when it is spoon-fed them in government schools. Lawrence proposed, "all schools should be closed at once. The great mass of humanity should never learn to read and write." The hatred and disgust for the intellectually vapid underclass was spelled out by Huxley and Wells. Huxley said "about 95.5 percent of the entire population of the planet are stupid and philistine." Woolf described others as social inferiors. Her diary mentioned self-taught working class men. "We know how distressing they are." Other women using public lavatory were "common little tarts." Middle-class working women in a restaurant eating cakes were "scented, shoddy, parasitic. Where does the money come [from] to feed these fat white slugs?" Wells fought for an atheist world government, because he said all wars are caused by popular patriotism and religious belief. His burning anti-Semistism was so pronounced that Eleanor Roosevelt asked Wells to leave the country. Shaw joins Wells in the idea that global domination must be brought about by genocide. In a time before Hitler, they wanted the mentally and physically unfit to be exterminated. According to Wells, "the swarms of black, brown, dirty-white, and yellow people in Africa and Asia will have to go." In Europe the "vicious, helpless and pauper masses, the weak and silly and pointless, and the lumpy, unteacheable, unimaginative people must be annihilated in a mercifle obliteration through disease, starvation, and execution." Shaw said, the "extermination must be put on a scientific basis if it is ever to be carried out humanely and apologetically as well as thoroughly. ...If we desire a certain type of civilization and culture, we must exterminate the sort of people who do not fit into it."

I was recently reminded to include Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood in our list of Leftist icons. She supported Nazi-style Eugenics to weed out the undeserving:
Modern studies indicate that insanity, epilepsy, criminality, prostitution, pauperism, and mental defect, are all organically bound up together and that the least intelligent and the thoroughly degenerate classes in every community are the most prolific. Feeble-mindedness in one generation becomes pauperism or insanity in the next. There is every indication that feeble-mindedness in its protean forms is on the increase, that it has leaped the barriers, and that there is truly, as some of the scientific eugenists have pointed out, a feeble-minded peril to future generations - unless the feeble-minded are prevented from reproducing their kind. To meet this emergency is the immediate and peremptory duty of every State and of all communities.

I wonder if cleansing the world of the infirm and elderly would help this mindset.

Pelosi may just think it was an opportunity to push her abortion ideals and may have nothing to do with genocide and social cleansing, but the targeted victims of this virus may resonate with what Huxley and Wells wished for.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2020, 08:11:29 PM by wmLambert »

Kasandra

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #124 on: March 22, 2020, 07:58:27 AM »
Recent polling shows that evangelicals and Republicans don't take the coronavirus nearly as seriously as others do.  One evangelical said,

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“Well, I don’t want to be judgmental, but I guess that’s fine if you want to live in fear rather than trusting in the Lord.”

One Republican Congressman said,

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“They call it the coronavirus. I call it the beer virus. How do you like that?”

It must be hard when reality doesn't conform to your religious or political beliefs.

Crunch

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #125 on: March 22, 2020, 08:49:09 AM »
You oughta know.

DonaldD

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #126 on: March 22, 2020, 09:19:13 AM »
What's very interesting is that in almost no other country but the USA, have politics so dominated the discourse on public health and the response to the pandemic.  Yes, the UK was originally choosing a mitigation strategy as well, but it wasn't framed as a progressive vs conservative strategy.

Only in the USA has the pandemic response taken a back seat to the politics of acknowledging the facts and risks associated to it.

wmLambert's last post is a case in point: the administration's reactions had been exclusively political in nature up until this past week. And yes, Democrats had also been making political hay from Trump's inept and frankly dangerous lack of coherency on the topic. But I guarantee you that people like wmLambert are completely oblivious to that dynamic. 

Your body politic is basically broken beyond repair.

Kasandra

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #127 on: March 22, 2020, 09:32:56 AM »
You oughta know.

Projection is a powerful rhetorical device when you have no defense.  "Oh, yeah?!?  Well, look who's talking!"

What's very interesting is that in almost no other country but the USA, have politics so dominated the discourse on public health and the response to the pandemic.  Yes, the UK was originally choosing a mitigation strategy as well, but it wasn't framed as a progressive vs conservative strategy.

Only in the USA has the pandemic response taken a back seat to the politics of acknowledging the facts and risks associated to it.

wmLambert's last post is a case in point: the administration's reactions had been exclusively political in nature up until this past week. And yes, Democrats had also been making political hay from Trump's inept and frankly dangerous lack of coherency on the topic. But I guarantee you that people like wmLambert are completely oblivious to that dynamic. 

Your body politic is basically broken beyond repair.

This is exactly right.  Our politics have moved steadily away from the so-called democratic principles it was based on for the simple reason that it only works by agreement among all parties and interests involved.  It's as if banks didn't lock their money up and nobody would steal it because it didn't belong to them.  Then somebody got the bright idea that nobody would stop them and taught others that no one would stop them, either.  In the case of politics, democracy has been stolen and we're close to bankrupt.

The hope is that once the pandemic has claimed its victims and abated that enough of those who remain will not just realize that there has to be a better way, but will make it happen.  Others will double-down and try to steal what little remains.

TheDeamon

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #128 on: March 22, 2020, 11:53:41 AM »
My thing is the Democrats were seemingly seeking to blow up the economy as early as January when the first Covid-19 cases hit the United States. We've had freaking Ebola believed to escape containment in the US during the Obama Admin. The Trump Admins response to Covid-19 shared a LOT in common with the Ebola incident right up until the last few weeks.

Yes, we had Ebola(or Covid-19) in the country. No, the public need not be freaking out about the situation as it was believed to be "under control" by public health authorities. Right up to the moment they realized it was not under control with respect to Covid-19.

Were there Republicans and Conservatives helping fan the flames of fear during the Ebola situation? Yes. The press gave it a lot of attention too, but they also spent a lot of time trying to calm people down. Not so with Covid-19 and a Republican in the White House.

LetterRip

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #129 on: March 22, 2020, 12:29:26 PM »
My thing is the Democrats were seemingly seeking to blow up the economy as early as January when the first Covid-19 cases hit the United States.

No it would have saved the economy.  It was clear by late January that extreme containment measures would need to be taken to have any chance of minimizing spread, and the sooner action was taken the better the odds.

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We've had freaking Ebola believed to escape containment in the US during the Obama Admin.

Ebola while deadly isn't contagious until symptomatic and the symptoms are obvious (ie can't be confused with flu or a cold).  So it is fairly easy to contain.

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The Trump Admins response to Covid-19 shared a LOT in common with the Ebola incident right up until the last few weeks. Yes, we had Ebola(or Covid-19) in the country. No, the public need not be freaking out about the situation as it was believed to be "under control" by public health authorities. Right up to the moment they realized it was not under control with respect to Covid-19.

The public absolutely didn't need to freak over Ebola.  The reason it was such an issue in Africa is because their funeral rites resulted in a high risk of spread.

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In addition, researchers [1–4] concur that the widespread embracing of certain traditional and religious practices among West African communities had tremendous negative effects on the spreading of the disease. In concurrence, the World Health Organization (WHO) [5] contents that nearly 60% of all Ebola cases reported in Guinea can be linked to traditional burial practices.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4709130/

It's RO in a modern country is less than 1 (given that 60% of spread was funeral rites - that implies an RO of .7-.9 without spread due to those rites), even though in Africa it was 1.5-2.  Also it wasn't contagious until the invididual is symptomatic - so 'stay away from sick people' was adequate to contain it - the only real risk was to medical personnel treating the individual and people in intimate contact after the individual was symptomatic (which was mostly family).

For COVID-19 we have known for quite awhile that it can be spread by asymptomatic individuals.  By January 20th it was clear that it wasn't going to be contained by both public health officials, intelligence agencies, and the military.

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Were there Republicans and Conservatives helping fan the flames of fear during the Ebola situation? Yes. The press gave it a lot of attention too, but they also spent a lot of time trying to calm people down. Not so with Covid-19 and a Republican in the White House.

The Republicans and Conservatives were being completely irresponsible.  The risk of Ebola was tiny with proper response and it was clear to anyone who had a basic understanding of the issues.  It is quite the opposite with COVID-19.  While it is less deadly on an individual basis - it can't be contained without extreme measures.

Kasandra

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #130 on: March 22, 2020, 12:32:41 PM »
My thing is the Democrats were seemingly seeking to blow up the economy as early as January when the first Covid-19 cases hit the United States. We've had freaking Ebola believed to escape containment in the US during the Obama Admin. The Trump Admins response to Covid-19 shared a LOT in common with the Ebola incident right up until the last few weeks.

Yes, we had Ebola(or Covid-19) in the country. No, the public need not be freaking out about the situation as it was believed to be "under control" by public health authorities. Right up to the moment they realized it was not under control with respect to Covid-19.

Were there Republicans and Conservatives helping fan the flames of fear during the Ebola situation? Yes. The press gave it a lot of attention too, but they also spent a lot of time trying to calm people down. Not so with Covid-19 and a Republican in the White House.

Like a bleached blonde showing her roots, you're betraying your conservative anti-Democratic bias.  Why would Democrats and the press *want* to blow up the economy?  Why would Democrats *want* to let millions of people get sick and perhaps die just because there's a Repubican in the White House?

Speaking as one of the "liberals" several people on this forum despise with an unquenchable lack of empathy, I'll tell you what I think.  First, Trump is both stupid and mentally ill, as witnessed by hundreds of his own utterances and actions.  Second, it didn't take even a stable genius to recognize that the coronavirus was going to go big, bad and deadly when it was first learned about.  South Korea and the US learned of it on the same day, and South Korea took strong action immediately; we didn't.  Our Intelligence Agencies warned Trump well before this became a public emergency that it was likely to happen, but Trump not only did nothing, but pretended that it was a minor problem and would go away "quickly" and disappear as if by a "miracle".

You can disagree with some or even all of my analysis, but it's deeply offensive that you would imagine that I, or anybody not on some far fringe, would *want* the economy to tank or people to die just because there is a Republican in the White House.

Likewise, give up trying to pin anything that is happening today on Obama.  He's been out of office for over 3 years.  At what point does Trump start taking responsibility for any bad news that happens on his watch?

TheDeamon

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #131 on: March 22, 2020, 01:18:12 PM »
Likewise, give up trying to pin anything that is happening today on Obama.  He's been out of office for over 3 years.  At what point does Trump start taking responsibility for any bad news that happens on his watch?

How is contrasting things against the Obama Administrations handling of an outbreak "attempting to blame Obama" for what is happening now?

It was demonstrating how a few seemingly isolated cases making it into the United States isn't necessarily the end of the world. It didn't end then.

You're also ignoring the broken (analog) clock scenario. Of course people were warning "it could get worse" as they have contingency planers for almost everything and some people are naturally inclined towards doom and gloom. They predict doom enough times, they'll eventually be right.

You're ignoring that there were likewise probably plenty of experts who were saying "the measures we're taking right now(January/early February) should be sufficient to ensure containment of the virus within our borders."

There also is the whole matter of hindsight being 20/20 and the President needing to strike a balance between what's probable, vs possible, vs cost of action now vs cost of action later.

If the President locked down the country every time "team doom" predicted it's eminent arrival, we'd never leave a state of lockdown.

Kasandra

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #132 on: March 22, 2020, 02:22:32 PM »
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You're ignoring that there were likewise probably plenty of experts who were saying "the measures we're taking right now(January/early February) should be sufficient to ensure containment of the virus within our borders."

What were those measures?  Remember, Trump said repeatedly that it was going to just disappear on its own.  Eventually, of course, that will be true.

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There also is the whole matter of hindsight being 20/20 and the President needing to strike a balance between what's probable, vs possible, vs cost of action now vs cost of action later.

Then why are so many conservative outlets and commentators, as well as Trump himself, laying blame on Obama?  You can't seriously suggest that's not happening and that Trump isn't doing it.

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If the President locked down the country every time "team doom" predicted it's eminent arrival, we'd never leave a state of lockdown.

I consider this a particularly weaselly defense.  Just because other "team doom" predictions may not have panned out, nobody is to blame for not taking this one seriously.  An "abundance of caution" was eschewed in favor of turning a blind eye to the potential dangers and insisting nothing bad was going to happen.  Don't take my word for it, go back and listen to Trump's pronouncements.

wmLambert

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #133 on: March 22, 2020, 02:56:02 PM »
Likewise, give up trying to pin anything that is happening today on Obama.  He's been out of office for over 3 years.  At what point does Trump start taking responsibility for any bad news that happens on his watch?

How is contrasting things against the Obama Administrations handling of an outbreak "attempting to blame Obama" for what is happening now?

It was demonstrating how a few seemingly isolated cases making it into the United States isn't necessarily the end of the world. It didn't end then.

You're also ignoring the broken (analog) clock scenario. Of course people were warning "it could get worse" as they have contingency planers for almost everything and some people are naturally inclined towards doom and gloom. They predict doom enough times, they'll eventually be right.

You're ignoring that there were likewise probably plenty of experts who were saying "the measures we're taking right now(January/early February) should be sufficient to ensure containment of the virus within our borders."

There also is the whole matter of hindsight being 20/20 and the President needing to strike a balance between what's probable, vs possible, vs cost of action now vs cost of action later.

If the President locked down the country every time "team doom" predicted it's eminent arrival, we'd never leave a state of lockdown.

Very good response.

There has always been two strings to the Trump response to the news from Wuhan. It was the day after the news broke that he put restrictions on travel. He was condemned for that. The second string of his bow was the bully pulpit, trying to ameliorate the economic impact of the restrictions. He was condemned for that also.

All through this time period, the Left has said "the administration's reactions had been exclusively political in nature up until this past week. And yes, Democrats had also been making political hay from Trump's inept and frankly dangerous lack of coherency on the topic."

That is itself political and incoherent. How can Trump closing the border so quickly be "inept?" How can his assembling the greatest minds so quickly, and actually listening to them be considered wrong? How can trying to spread hope and soften the affect of doom and gloom on the economy be unbalanced or dangerous?

Kasandra

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #134 on: March 22, 2020, 03:36:06 PM »
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That is itself political and incoherent. How can Trump closing the border so quickly be "inept?" How can his assembling the greatest minds so quickly, and actually listening to them be considered wrong? How can trying to spread hope and soften the affect of doom and gloom on the economy be unbalanced or dangerous?

Take it from Yogi, "You can see a lot just by observing," but observing doesn't mean you can see what that is.  It's really a wasted effort to argue with you, but I would imagine that most people can see what you're saying by observing.

DonaldD

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #135 on: March 22, 2020, 04:11:56 PM »
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My thing is the Democrats were seemingly seeking to blow up the economy as early as January
This is just stupid, and is a concrete example of the very failure of US politics that I mentioned earlier.

That you clearly don't realize that your position is transparently ridiculous is more evidence of the same.

TheDeamon

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #136 on: March 22, 2020, 04:23:41 PM »
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My thing is the Democrats were seemingly seeking to blow up the economy as early as January
This is just stupid, and is a concrete example of the very failure of US politics that I mentioned earlier.

That you clearly don't realize that your position is transparently ridiculous is more evidence of the same.

The Democrats spent a LOT of 2004 talking about how the economy was bad under Bush, and the Media supported them--because they know the incumbent has a hard time winning during a sour economy--See Bush v Clinton in 1992, Reagan v Carter in 1980, Kennedy v Nixon in 1960.

They also weren't particularly rosy on the economy well in advance of the collapse that happened in 2008, but hey that helped bring Obama into office.

So it is hardly a stretch to believe that political operatives and staunch (Democratic) partisans, would be almost gleeful at the prospect of something that could throw the economy into a skid or even protracted downturn, as it would make it much easier to campaign against Donald Trump. They have a history of doing it, and history has a record which gives them a compelling reason to want to try it.

Kasandra

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #137 on: March 22, 2020, 04:59:03 PM »
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So it is hardly a stretch to believe that political operatives and staunch (Democratic) partisans, would be almost gleeful at the prospect of something that could throw the economy into a skid or even protracted downturn, as it would make it much easier to campaign against Donald Trump. They have a history of doing it, and history has a record which gives them a compelling reason to want to try it.

Sorry, dude, but that thinking is infected with a deadly political virus.

yossarian22c

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #138 on: March 22, 2020, 05:35:28 PM »
Trump gets a good mark stopping travel from China. It probably delayed the outbreak here by 2 weeks. However he wasted those two weeks. We didn't stock up on medical supplies, ventilators, PPE, and get a robust testing network set up. We didn't start all those actions until the **** started hitting the fan. So now we're playing catch up and more people will die than necessary, the economy will be shut down for longer than it would have otherwise been, and I hope to got he doesn't screw up the stimulus too. Because 1 trillion isn't going to cut it. We need 2 trillion minimum for the economy to rebound the way everyone wants it too.

TheDeamon

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #139 on: March 22, 2020, 05:42:33 PM »
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So it is hardly a stretch to believe that political operatives and staunch (Democratic) partisans, would be almost gleeful at the prospect of something that could throw the economy into a skid or even protracted downturn, as it would make it much easier to campaign against Donald Trump. They have a history of doing it, and history has a record which gives them a compelling reason to want to try it.

Sorry, dude, but that thinking is infected with a deadly political virus.

Anecdotally:

http://www.ornery.org/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/6/4232.html#000013
July 27, 2004
Quote from: Pete
Why are we even talking about fiscal conservatism during a war AND a recession?

That's like talking about long-term water conservation while your city is burning down.

http://www.ornery.org/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/6/4233.html#000032
July 27, 2004
Quote from: OhPuhLeez
Daruma says
Quote
We are in the third straight quarter of job growth and a booming economy.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=568&e=4&u=/nm/20040727/bs_nm/economy_budget_dc

Or not.

A booming economy?
Are you kidding me?
Who are YOU hanging around with???

http://www.ornery.org/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/6/4233.html#000036
July 27, 2004
Quote from: Everard
The economy isn't terrible... its simply worse then it would be if Gore had won the presidency, and not as good as it was when Bush took office, and a lower percentage of americans have jobs, a lower percentage have good jobs, and a lower percentage have equivalenent benefits, compared to 1999.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recession_2000s#United_States
Quote
The Labor Department estimates that a net 1.735 million jobs were shed in 2001, with an additional net 508,000 lost during 2002. 2003 saw a small gain of a mere 105,000 jobs. Unemployment rose from 4.2% in February 2001 to 5.5% in November 2001, but did not peak until June 2003 at 6.3%, after which it declined to 5% by mid-2005.

"Ah but it peaked in June of 2004, and you're quoting them in July of the same year, they didn't have the data yet!"

TheDeamon

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #140 on: March 22, 2020, 05:45:20 PM »
Trump gets a good mark stopping travel from China. It probably delayed the outbreak here by 2 weeks. However he wasted those two weeks. We didn't stock up on medical supplies, ventilators, PPE, and get a robust testing network set up. We didn't start all those actions until the **** started hitting the fan. So now we're playing catch up and more people will die than necessary, the economy will be shut down for longer than it would have otherwise been, and I hope to got he doesn't screw up the stimulus too. Because 1 trillion isn't going to cut it. We need 2 trillion minimum for the economy to rebound the way everyone wants it too.

I like how this is being portrayed as singularly "Trump's fault" while it completely ignores that practically every other ""1st world nation" also screwed the pooch on this one.

Trump did what was prudent at the time. The "problem" was that other countries (notably Italy) did not, and kept travel to China open a bit longer, and that in turn resulted in a much larger spread through vectors other than directly from China. The only way he have stopped that was to also impose travel restriction on any country that also didn't activate a travel restriction against China, and then run it recursively from there where you subsequently enact restrictions on the countries that don't restrict those countries, and so on.

Kasandra

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #141 on: March 22, 2020, 06:01:43 PM »
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I like how this is being portrayed as singularly "Trump's fault" while it completely ignores that practically every other ""1st world nation" also screwed the pooch on this one.

I continue to be amazed at the extents you will go to give Trump a pass for screwing up.  Aren't we the most well-developed nation in the world with the most well-developed economy and a great health care system and social welfare system?  You want to compare us to a bunch of loser countries as if to say we aren't doing worse than them, and make that our excuse?  Really?!?!?!

fizz

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #142 on: March 22, 2020, 06:35:47 PM »
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I like how this is being portrayed as singularly "Trump's fault" while it completely ignores that practically every other ""1st world nation" also screwed the pooch on this one.

Trump did what was prudent at the time. The "problem" was that other countries (notably Italy) did not, and kept travel to China open a bit longer, and that in turn resulted in a much larger spread through vectors other than directly from China. The only way he have stopped that was to also impose travel restriction on any country that also didn't activate a travel restriction against China, and then run it recursively from there where you subsequently enact restrictions on the countries that don't restrict those countries, and so on.


First of all, Italy did close borders to China even earlier than the US did, just after a couple of Chinese tourist fell ill while in Italy on the 23th of January, and were promptly isolated.
Quote
From a BBC news article of the 1st of February:
The US and Australia said they would deny entry to all foreign visitors who had recently been in China, where the virus first emerged in December.
Earlier, countries including Russia, Japan, Pakistan and Italy announced similar travel restrictions.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-51338899

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/analysis/analysis-italy-coronavirus-trauma/1770016

By then, Coronavirus had already entered, more silently, by way of a German businessman that had just met on 21st of January an asymptomatic Chinese businesswoman.
That German businessman company had some sites in the first Italian hot spot town, Codogno, and from employee to employee it did spread by way of asymptomatic patients.

Genetic drift analysis, according to the article, track the same variant strain to spots in Mexico, Finland and Scotland, that happened in a similar time frame.
https://tg24.sky.it/mondo/2020/03/07/coronavirus-paziente-zero-tedesco-contagio-europa.html

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2001468

The point is, closing borders when you've already cases inside your border is, well, not useless, because at least it moderate the spread, but largely insufficient, if you leave movement free inside the border: the virus was stopped where instant tracking and isolation where put in force.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/20/eradicated-coronavirus-mass-testing-covid-19-italy-vo

Even more than China, whose methods while efficient are a bit extreme for western democracies, I think South Korea is the model we should look at: they had an huge flare up due to that cult, but after that they managed to really rein in the spreading.

wmLambert

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #143 on: March 22, 2020, 06:59:47 PM »
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So it is hardly a stretch to believe that political operatives and staunch (Democratic) partisans, would be almost gleeful at the prospect of something that could throw the economy into a skid or even protracted downturn, as it would make it much easier to campaign against Donald Trump. They have a history of doing it, and history has a record which gives them a compelling reason to want to try it.

Sorry, dude, but that thinking is infected with a deadly political virus.

The response to the quote is the definitive debate fallacy of "Laughter by Intimidation:" ((See Appeals to Prejudice) Representing the advocate as being out of step with "right-thinking people" to the point where everyone laughs at your ridiculous viewpoint. No rebuttal is offered - just ridicule the messenger.}

Since every big election in living memory has been targeted by "November Surprises" and the lead-up to Presidential elections have had to endure purposeful sabotage to sour the economy, it is clearly not just wishful thinking to point out that "political operatives and staunch (Democratic) partisans, would be almost gleeful at the prospect of something that could throw the economy into a skid or even protracted downturn." Why do apologists for the Democrats never remember the off-season, wherein the Democrat scoundrels admit to what they had done? Of course they do so by saying "both sides do it," but neglect to mention the court cases that prove they did it, but the other side didn't.

Does anyone recall the successful first term of Bush 43, when he brought bipartisanship to a new high, only to have the Democrats unilaterally remove themselves from his many working groups, because they believed he was "stealing their issues?" It was after Ted Kennedy led his school reforms and brought about NCLB that they read the writing on the wall. After that, it was "Anything Bush fights for, we will oppose." It is hard to forget Obama campaigning against the energy sector and leading the fight against off-shore drilling, fracking, oil pipelines, and Anwar. Fuel prices soared and tourism tanked. Schumer attacked IndyMac, causing investors to bail, which started the real estate bubble collapse. Am I the only one who lived through these times?

yossarian22c

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #144 on: March 22, 2020, 07:27:10 PM »
Trump gets a good mark stopping travel from China. It probably delayed the outbreak here by 2 weeks. However he wasted those two weeks. We didn't stock up on medical supplies, ventilators, PPE, and get a robust testing network set up. We didn't start all those actions until the **** started hitting the fan. So now we're playing catch up and more people will die than necessary, the economy will be shut down for longer than it would have otherwise been, and I hope to got he doesn't screw up the stimulus too. Because 1 trillion isn't going to cut it. We need 2 trillion minimum for the economy to rebound the way everyone wants it too.

I like how this is being portrayed as singularly "Trump's fault" while it completely ignores that practically every other ""1st world nation" also screwed the pooch on this one.

Richard Burr called it. Guess Trump should have talked with him. He figured it out in Feb that he needed to sell all of his stocks. Would have been nice if the Senator had acted to help the country instead of protecting his investments. But to say this was completely unpredictable or that Trump only messed up as much as other world leaders is just crazy. We got at least a couple weeks longer than some other countries to prepare and we just didn't.

DonaldD

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #145 on: March 22, 2020, 08:25:21 PM »
Quote
My thing is the Democrats were seemingly seeking to blow up the economy as early as January
This is just stupid, and is a concrete example of the very failure of US politics that I mentioned earlier.

That you clearly don't realize that your position is transparently ridiculous is more evidence of the same.

The Democrats spent a LOT of 2004 talking about how the economy was bad under Bush, and the Media supported them--because they know the incumbent has a hard time winning during a sour economy--See Bush v Clinton in 1992, Reagan v Carter in 1980, Kennedy v Nixon in 1960.

They also weren't particularly rosy on the economy well in advance of the collapse that happened in 2008, but hey that helped bring Obama into office.

So it is hardly a stretch to believe that political operatives and staunch (Democratic) partisans, would be almost gleeful at the prospect of something that could throw the economy into a skid or even protracted downturn, as it would make it much easier to campaign against Donald Trump. They have a history of doing it, and history has a record which gives them a compelling reason to want to try it.
I won't debate whether the Democrats in 2004 "were talking about how the economy was bad under Bush" or whether, acting as the opposition, they were making the case of how their policies would have provided a better response to the recession - although I will point out that the latter is basically the responsibility of the opposition party - to present an alternative option.

Regardless of that debate, it is unquestionable that your silly statement was different in kind, not just degree, from your attempted defense: you very clearly stated that you believed the Democrats were "seeking to blow up the economy" - not just to benefit from a bad economy, or even to gleefully watch the economy burn (again, debatable) but to sabotage the economy.  That was the stupid bit.

DonaldD

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #146 on: March 22, 2020, 08:55:05 PM »
Twitter: Rand Paul at the Senate gym this morning

I don't know what's crazier - that the senate gym is still open, or that a federal senator, after having symptoms significant enough to have been tested, was still going to the gym, never mind self-isolating.

Kasandra

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #147 on: March 23, 2020, 06:41:45 AM »
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Am I the only one who lived through these times?

You dance through a maze of facts like a 400lb ballerina.

Crunch

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #148 on: March 23, 2020, 07:57:51 AM »
Twitter: Rand Paul at the Senate gym this morning

I don't know what's crazier - that the senate gym is still open, or that a federal senator, after having symptoms significant enough to have been tested, was still going to the gym, never mind self-isolating.

The rules only apply to you, not our elite leaders. Surely you knew this already.

TheDrake

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Re: Trump Response to Covid-19
« Reply #149 on: March 23, 2020, 11:41:08 AM »
Twitter: Rand Paul at the Senate gym this morning

I don't know what's crazier - that the senate gym is still open, or that a federal senator, after having symptoms significant enough to have been tested, was still going to the gym, never mind self-isolating.

Paul's account later tweeted that he visited the gym before he found out he had tested positive.

The first question still applies.