Author Topic: War on Cops  (Read 353 times)

wmLambert

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War on Cops
« on: September 14, 2020, 09:32:43 PM »
Two deputies were ambushed and shot in the face. The shooter was recorded on camera but has not been identified yet. The female officer who was shot through her jaw, a mother of a six-year-old, managed to rig a tourniquet on her partner.

The BLM street goons blocked the hospital emergency entryways, and chanted support for killing cops.

The laughing BLM people who wanted the cops dead, should be put on the terrorism watch list. These animals need to be arrested and punished for their parts in all this. No way should such actions be allowed.

wmLambert

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Re: War on Cops
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2020, 09:45:37 PM »
This YouTube video includes both the shooting and the BLM blocking the hospital. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30PaGJm-N4c

DonaldD

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Re: War on Cops
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2020, 10:01:17 PM »
If they were blocking access to the hospital, then the police would have absolutely had reason to move them away or arrest them if they refused to move after being given appropriate warning.

As for those who had not blocked access, but who had "chanted support support for killing cops", are you suggesting those "animals need to be arrested and punished" as well?

Fenring

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Re: War on Cops
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2020, 10:47:53 PM »
As for those who had not blocked access, but who had "chanted support support for killing cops", are you suggesting those "animals need to be arrested and punished" as well?

Um, based on what I understand are current FBI guidelines, any group even suggesting the illegitimacy of Federal or local law enforcement would be on a terrorism watch list. That is why so-called constitutionalists were on the last version of the domestic terrorist guidelines that I caught sight of. A group outright calling for violence against police? I don't think that's even remotely a stretch to call them a terrorist organization. Of course two answers may come back:

1) But they aren't an organization!
-This feels like an epic cop-out, since all that means is that guerrilla activity is legitimized, just so long as it's not centrally coordinated?
2) It's just a few people, so what are you going to do, arrest them all?
-I tend to utterly disagree with the talk we hear sometimes (on these boards as well) that if you're anywhere near an agitator then it's your own fault and you should have known better. However that's in the case of a peaceful protest. If we're talking about blocking a hospital emergency entrance, then I actually do think that any instance of an obviously dangerous demonstration you're attending, you actually do have an obligation to try to stop it or else to vacate, because you really are aiding and abetting - or at minimum a useful idiot - if the group you're with is doing bad stuff. People chanting "death to cops"? I'd go on record saying that anyone ok to hang out with people saying that has crossed the line and should expect to be arrested from time to time.

DonaldD

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Re: War on Cops
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2020, 11:42:51 PM »
There is a difference between chanting "we hope they die", chanting "support for killing cops" (see what wmLambert did there?), and suggesting the illegitimacy of law enforcement.  Ands it is orders of magnitude different from walking up to a police car and shooting the officers inside for which there is no excuse, no rationalization.

Now, whether the FBI guidelines say that people who protest against law enforcement should be placed on watch lists has absolutely nothing to do with whether wmLambert supports the 1st amendment only insofar as people say things that he likes. And anyway, the FBI putting people on watch lists also does not mean that "suggesting the illegitimacy of Federal or local law enforcement" is in any way illegal. Voicing the hope that those officers die is repugnant.  It is, depending on what exactly they said and its likely interpretation, not illegal.

As for "blocking access to the hospital" what exactly did that look like, and were the 4 journalists who were assaulted and arrested by police also involved in those actions? If they did block access then those blocking access should have been dealt with.

The characterization of the protesters by the police, that they were in fact blocking access to the hospital, unfortunately, can hardly be taken at face value.  The same LA County Sherriff Twitter feed that claimed the protesters were blocking access to the hospital also lied in several different ways about the arrest of journalist Josie Huang (there is always a video now, or in this case, several) and members of that department were shown, after arresting her, destroying her phone, i.e., her video camera. Let that sink in - the police attempted to destroy evidence of their actions during the arrest of a journalist.

So I would take with a grain of salt any characterization or description originating with the LASD right now.  Sure, they are angry, and understandably so.  But letting that anger interfere with their duties is not just unprofessional, it is a violation of their oath.

What I have seen on video was 5 protesters, all men, milling about in front of about the same number of armed police in the access area of the hospital. They were haranguing those police, who were also standing in the drive up to the hospital.  It is unclear whether those men would have stopped any vehicles from approaching the hospital, or whether they were only there to get in the faces of those cops.


yossarian22c

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Re: War on Cops
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2020, 10:12:52 AM »
Two deputies were ambushed and shot in the face. The shooter was recorded on camera but has not been identified yet. The female officer who was shot through her jaw, a mother of a six-year-old, managed to rig a tourniquet on her partner.

The BLM street goons blocked the hospital emergency entryways, and chanted support for killing cops.

The laughing BLM people who wanted the cops dead, should be put on the terrorism watch list. These animals need to be arrested and punished for their parts in all this. No way should such actions be allowed.

I don't support the people protesting at the hospital, its despicable and shows a deep hatred. They aren't animals, they are angry and hurt human beings. How many stop and frisks, car searches, and staring down the barrel of a cops gun would it take for you to become angry and disenchanted with the police?

You classify two cops being shot as a "war on cops." Dangerous rhetoric, because there are also stories of cops shooting (often needlessly) black people, 13 year old autistic kids, other mentally ill people, and lots of others. Are cops engaging in "a war on blacks", "a war on the mentally ill", or "a war on civilians." Because once we go down the sides are "at war" route then a lot of violence is "justified" on both sides.

rightleft22

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Re: War on Cops
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2020, 10:51:33 AM »
When it comes to policing the 'bad apples' do not represent the whole (even if the whole seem to be ok with not holding the 'bad apples' accountable)
When it comes to protesters the 'bad apples represent the whole. It is unlikely that those making those kinds of arguments are aware of the contradiction and or out right hypocrisy. 

TheDeamon

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Re: War on Cops
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2020, 02:50:10 PM »
Well, in a period of three days in my community we've now had an officer involved shooting of an armed white male suspect(he's still alive), and in the neighboring city, another officer was shot at upon the start of a traffic stop(not hit, although his vehicle was) with that suspect is still at large at this time.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 02:52:58 PM by TheDeamon »

yossarian22c

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Re: War on Cops
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2020, 10:28:46 AM »
https://www.npr.org/2020/09/30/918858691/man-charged-in-shooting-of-2-l-a-sheriffs-deputies

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A man has been charged with attempted murder after he fired multiple shots into a Los Angeles County sheriff's patrol vehicle earlier this month.

Deonte Lee Murray, 36, allegedly fired a handgun into the squad car as it was parked near a train station in Compton on Sept. 12.
...
Murray has been in custody for weeks, but it took several days for police to connect him to the deputies' shooting through forensic evidence.
...
During the car-chase that led to that arrest, Murray had thrown a pistol out the window. Deputies later recovered it, and using ballistic comparison, determined it was the same gun used to shoot the sheriff's deputies.

Glad they caught this guy.

Seriati

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Re: War on Cops
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2020, 10:59:32 AM »
If they were blocking access to the hospital, then the police would have absolutely had reason to move them away or arrest them if they refused to move after being given appropriate warning.

No.  Why would any functional human being need to be given "appropriate warning" not to block access to a hospital?  Have you really gone so far past zero that you'd think blocking a hospital is an event that would ever be okay?

I have little patience for those that illegally block interstates and major roads, but blocking emergency services is never okay.

They should be immediately arrested and charged (and actually tried).  I find it beyond absurd that people claim they are all about justice, and yet are completely on board with the new practice of local Democratic prosecutors not charging actual crimes committed by those with whom they agree politically.  I mean the same person that thinks Barr is "Trump's lawyer" because Barr follows the law, sees nothing wrong with the NY AG announcing they are going to investigate Trump's whole family till they find something illegal, and with other Democratic prosecutors refusing to prosecute "non-violent" felonies that occur during Democratic political riots. 

There's a reason Justice is blind, and its because what the eyes open crowd advocates isn't Justice, it's just witch trials with a new gloss.

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As for those who had not blocked access, but who had "chanted support support for killing cops", are you suggesting those "animals need to be arrested and punished" as well?

Nah, they got every right to say that.  How about you get off your rear and put that cancel culture to a valid use and cancel them?

Seriati

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Re: War on Cops
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2020, 11:19:55 AM »
Um, based on what I understand are current FBI guidelines, any group even suggesting the illegitimacy of Federal or local law enforcement would be on a terrorism watch list. That is why so-called constitutionalists were on the last version of the domestic terrorist guidelines that I caught sight of. A group outright calling for violence against police? I don't think that's even remotely a stretch to call them a terrorist organization.

A group making that chant is not a terrorist organization.  A group taking steps to implement it or encourage it would be.

Not sure what you mean by "constitutionalists."  The Tea Party, for example, should never have been on a watch list.  If they were, that was a precursor to the life we're now living where federal law enforcement agencies were co-opted to scrutinize the opposition to the DNC.

If you're talking about the heavily armed militias that were "prepping" for the fall of the US?  Maybe, maybe not, depending on whether the organization was planning to "help" the fall along.

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Of course two answers may come back:

1) But they aren't an organization!
-This feels like an epic cop-out, since all that means is that guerrilla activity is legitimized, just so long as it's not centrally coordinated?

People have a funny understanding on this (and politically convenient to boot).  Lack of a brick and mortar headquarters does not eliminate something from being an organization.  An organization is any group that shows an ongoing ability to coordinate and organize.  That hurdle has been far exceeded for many of those groups.

But more fundamentally, this is a distinction that exists everywhere.  Iran is not held accountable for acts of war because instead of sending soldiers trained in Iran and funded by Iran in Iranian uniforms to conduct them, they send soldiers trained in Iran and funded by Iran that wear plain clothes.  The whole world has agreed to pretend that Iran is not accountable in the same way for doing that (still accountable, but it's a fight to enforce it and is no where near the impact of what would come down on Iran in the other circumstance).

Same thing is going on here.  Without an "official" organization, the media has no spokesperson to interview, there's no high profile names that can be railed against, and accordingly, the group doesn't exist.  Well it doesn't exist if it supports left wing causes, you'll note they have no problem "finding" "white nationalists" involved in everything under the sun despite not being able to find any actual people to accuse directly on that front either.  Why are white nationalists real and antifa not real?  Just politics.

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2) It's just a few people, so what are you going to do, arrest them all?
-I tend to utterly disagree with the talk we hear sometimes (on these boards as well) that if you're anywhere near an agitator then it's your own fault and you should have known better. However that's in the case of a peaceful protest.

If you are involved in a peaceful protest, and you see a violent crime you should call the police and make a statement.  If you don't, but instead interfere "peacefully" with the police's ability to keep order, to make arrests and ultimately to stop the crime, you're not an innocent bystander.  Think about it like an injury at a kid's sporting event, the first thing the other kids are taught to do is to take a knee.  That's not about really about respect, that's to get them out of the way of the people trying to help.  If you're at a protest that is turning violent, and you're not in a position to do something about the violence, you need to take a knee and clear out so that those who have the ability to stop it can do so.

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If we're talking about blocking a hospital emergency entrance, then I actually do think that any instance of an obviously dangerous demonstration you're attending, you actually do have an obligation to try to stop it or else to vacate, because you really are aiding and abetting - or at minimum a useful idiot - if the group you're with is doing bad stuff. People chanting "death to cops"? I'd go on record saying that anyone ok to hang out with people saying that has crossed the line and should expect to be arrested from time to time.

Think how evil that chant is.  It's not about holding guilty or bad cops to account, its about criminalizing an entire class of people with an "original sin" of being a police officer.  It's literally about casting as negative a profession whose entire existence is to enforce the laws that we - as a democracy - have agreed apply.  What the heck?  I guaranty that if the people who are chanting that get power, they will not tolerate any dissent from the laws they put in place.  You think police are bad?  Wait and see how bad it's going to get when the left installs Soviet style political police.

And before you say, we have not criminalized an entire class of people no matter what BLM tells you.  It's not the "same" thing, it's not even a close thing.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2020, 11:29:55 AM by Seriati »

Fenring

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Re: War on Cops
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2020, 11:34:25 AM »
A group making that chant is not a terrorist organization.  A group taking steps to implement it or encourage it would be.

It's fuzzy in the sense that there are not really any actual terrorist organizations in America (like Cobra), so the FBI is mandated to watch for certain red flags and certain groups that exhibit those red flags. A group chanting or speaking about the legitimacy of the Federal government is as close at present as they can come to 'identifying' dangerous groups.

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Not sure what you mean by "constitutionalists."  The Tea Party, for example, should never have been on a watch list.  If they were, that was a precursor to the life we're now living where federal law enforcement agencies were co-opted to scrutinize the opposition to the DNC.

I mean this not in the sense of people who uphold the constitution, but rather self-styled groups whose primary mandate is to uphold the constitution in the face of what they see as a government that is no longer legitimate. I've actually met people like this IRL, who say things like "Did you know that income taxes are illegal and the government owes each of us millions of dollars?" and then the further conclusion of "Did you know that the U.S. government lost its legitimacy in 1933 and since then is a rogue organization?" Stuff like that. But there are some groups that are the arms-bearing type who believe such things; I guess you could call them militias, but the armament isn't really the main event there. So I'm not talking about the Tea Party.

And btw I'm only referencing what I actually saw in one iteration of the FBI guidelines for dangerous home-grown groups, which (as of maybe 10 years ago or something) including in its red flag categories groups insisting on upholding the constitution above all else. *I'm* not saying I think they're terrorists for believing that, but relating that it is afaik currently not out of the question for chanting something falling vaguely under the rubric of government or their enforcement being illegitimate as being classified as a domestic terrorism red flag for them.

wmLambert

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Re: War on Cops
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2020, 12:00:46 PM »
...it is afaik currently not out of the question for chanting something falling vaguely under the rubric of government or their enforcement being illegitimate as being classified as a domestic terrorism red flag for them.

Some of these groups are quite moral and hold to the precept that unless they accept the largess of the government, they stand apart from it. They can drive a car as long as they stay off government roads, etc.

Seriati

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Re: War on Cops
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2020, 01:34:04 PM »
It's fuzzy in the sense that there are not really any actual terrorist organizations in America (like Cobra), so the FBI is mandated to watch for certain red flags and certain groups that exhibit those red flags. A group chanting or speaking about the legitimacy of the Federal government is as close at present as they can come to 'identifying' dangerous groups.

A group using violence and intimidation for political purposes is pretty darn close to a terrorist organization, and we do in fact have that on wide spread basis in the United States.  The message that's coming through, is do what we say or we may burn down your city next, say what we want or we may destroy your career and your family, heck stand when we tell you to or we'll take your dinner and your beer.  The implicit threat is ALWAYS that someone even worse could happen if you don't comply.  I think you're confused in labeling this terrorism because we've dealt with "terrorists" for so long that exploited random murder-suicides so graphically.  The essence of this "movement" is compliance through terror.

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I mean this not in the sense of people who uphold the constitution, but rather self-styled groups whose primary mandate is to uphold the constitution in the face of what they see as a government that is no longer legitimate.

History decides if these people are right or wrong.  I think our government has clearly crossed the line of its legal constraints.  I mean look at the Flynn case.  Massive, massive spying on a US citizen with no probable cause, even political persons able to see his personal call transcripts without any evidence of criminality, and even the foreign agent angle was incredibly weak (and not in the Constitution to boot). 

Here's what the Constitution says on that:  "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

No part of that was complied with, not in any way shape or form.  No probable cause ever existed.  If you read through the FBI internal communications that have been revealed, it's absolutely, 100% crystal clear, that the FBI routinely uses work arounds without even any lip service to the Constitution to take information without probable cause, heck without even a clear suspicion.

How do you square that?  If you have a Constitution that's inviolate, yet routinely violated, do you have a Constitution?  Is it really only the people that have to follow the law and not the Government?

How do you square the Rule of Law with elected prosecutors deciding to overturn the laws passed by the people's legislature and Congress, signed by the executives and that the court's are willing to enforce?  One person, apparently, has the power to dictate the entirety of what really is the law.  We elected prosecutors to make them politically accountable, yet what we've gotten now is the nightmare version of that, where they are open partisans, running on platforms to ignore the laws.  It's all the way back to old England, with every local prosecutor the new Sheriff of Nottingham punishing her parties enemies and exempting their friends.

You can walk through the Bill of Rights and find open violations of all of them (except maybe the Third, but we'll see in the next Presidential administration).

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I've actually met people like this IRL, who say things like "Did you know that income taxes are illegal and the government owes each of us millions of dollars?" and then the further conclusion of "Did you know that the U.S. government lost its legitimacy in 1933 and since then is a rogue organization?" Stuff like that.

Shrug.  Public education has deemphasized critical thinking for so long how can you be surprised?  The people have been trained and conditioned to accept lessons from on high without thinking about it, even when they reject the orthodoxy they only have the tools to be information takers from other sources.

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And btw I'm only referencing what I actually saw in one iteration of the FBI guidelines for dangerous home-grown groups, which (as of maybe 10 years ago or something) including in its red flag categories groups insisting on upholding the constitution above all else.

Imagine that, the Obama-Biden statist administration thinking that upholding the Constitution is what a terrorist would do. 

Again, the deep state thinks that IT is the proper authority of the United States, not the people, and certainly not anyone that's elected by the people to bring them under control.

Pick an agency, after four years of a Trump administration, the staffs at all of them are still resisting his directions at every turn.  That's not because they're professional and they "know better."   That's because they are partisan and feel that no "fake President" can direct them to do differently.  I really care about your politics, the idea that bureaucrats should be able to resist the elected government for years should tell you everything you need to know about how out of control they are.

Fenring

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Re: War on Cops
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2020, 01:45:59 PM »
Those points are all fine, Seriati, but you may note that the purpose of my post was to show that there is some potential overlap between the political position of some of the protesters and some of the guidelines in the FBI's watchlist. That is all. I'm not making a statement about whether they are or are not actual terrorists, or should be called that; nor am I impugning 'constitutionalist' groups nor suggesting that they are all in fact bad.

wmLambert

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Re: War on Cops
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2020, 01:57:26 PM »
Those points are all fine, Seriati, but you may note that the purpose of my post was to show that there is some potential overlap between the political position of some of the protesters and some of the guidelines in the FBI's watchlist. That is all. I'm not making a statement about whether they are or are not actual terrorists, or should be called that; nor am I impugning 'constitutionalist' groups nor suggesting that they are all in fact bad.

True. Most are not incorrigibles, but all are idiots. They can have hearts of gold, yet still be idiot morons dancing to the disinformation they believe in. Some are cannon fodder and are thrown into the breech by activists who point them at their enemies and keep their own hands clean. We do all a disservice by pointing at the hoodwinked. We need to look hard at those causing the disinformation and the pain.

rightleft22

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Re: War on Cops
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2020, 02:05:40 PM »
Those points are all fine, Seriati, but you may note that the purpose of my post was to show that there is some potential overlap between the political position of some of the protesters and some of the guidelines in the FBI's watchlist. That is all. I'm not making a statement about whether they are or are not actual terrorists, or should be called that; nor am I impugning 'constitutionalist' groups nor suggesting that they are all in fact bad.

True. Most are not incorrigibles, but all are idiots. They can have hearts of gold, yet still be idiot morons dancing to the disinformation they believe in. Some are cannon fodder and are thrown into the breech by activists who point them at their enemies and keep their own hands clean. We do all a disservice by pointing at the hoodwinked. We need to look hard at those causing the disinformation and the pain.

I wonder if you made that argument without any thought that just maybe you too may have at times played the useful idiot promoting disinformation and pain.
Of course everyone demonstrating are idiots.... but I wonder if you agreed on the issue the brought out demonstrators if you would label everyone of them idiots.