Author Topic: Time for the Swamp perp-walk  (Read 1719 times)

wmLambert

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Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« on: May 01, 2020, 12:58:03 PM »
https://patriot.imgix.net/2e0c44ffb20cc6c84a45ff6b61d379194959b9a536d4822e0c8635014a4b80aa.jpg?w=720&auto=format

Now that the facts are finally seeing the light of day, we see the biggest scandal in the history of the country coming to light. Flynn was hated by McCabe for being a witness against him in 2014. Trump no longer thinks he needs to pardon Flynn because he is being totally exonerated. There must be catharsis, and the penalties must be observed to prove no one is above the law.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 01:01:09 PM by wmLambert »

Kasandra

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2020, 01:01:42 PM »
I'm curious.  You're a Christian, so do you think there are separate rooms in hell?  What rooms would Trump, Biden, Comey, etc., go into?  Or is hell just one big room and they would have to share?

wmLambert

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2020, 01:38:28 PM »
I'm curious.  You're a Christian, so do you think there are separate rooms in hell?  What rooms would Trump, Biden, Comey, etc., go into?  Or is hell just one big room and they would have to share?

The good guys, like Trump, are not in jeopardy - that is reserved for those who broke the law in order to create a coup d'état. Dante talked about 9 circles.

Kasandra

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2020, 01:42:48 PM »
I'm curious.  You're a Christian, so do you think there are separate rooms in hell?  What rooms would Trump, Biden, Comey, etc., go into?  Or is hell just one big room and they would have to share?

The good guys, like Trump, are not in jeopardy - that is reserved for those who broke the law in order to create a coup d'état. Dante talked about 9 circles.

That's what I figured. As the saying goes, you never fail to disappoint.

wmLambert

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2020, 02:03:30 PM »
I'm curious.  You're a Christian, so do you think there are separate rooms in hell?  What rooms would Trump, Biden, Comey, etc., go into?  Or is hell just one big room and they would have to share?

The good guys, like Trump, are not in jeopardy - that is reserved for those who broke the law in order to create a coup d'état. Dante talked about 9 circles.

That's what I figured. As the saying goes, you never fail to disappoint.

When disinformation is put forward, especially as snarkily as you always do, it will be answered. If not by me, then by anyone else who knows better than you do. Please stop trying to belittle those around you who honestly disagree with you. I don't try to belittle you, but I do understand you.

TheDrake

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2020, 02:19:15 PM »
wm, is it exhausting or exhilarating to always be right, summarily dismiss every point brought up against your point of view, and feel like you are surrounded by morons?

Seriati

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2020, 02:32:41 PM »
I have to ask, TheDrake, is your only response to what is absolutely a gross abuse of power by the FBI and DOJ to really get snarky with wmLambert?

The revelations from the notes on that meeting with Flynn really are so far over the line that no American should be okay with it.  The FBI knew for a fact that they had no evidence that Flynn had violated a law, no reason to suspect he had, and no reason to keep an investigation open. They had already spied on him - which is exactly what monitoring conversations with a foreign national and unmasking a US citizen is about.  Obtaining a wire tap on Flynn required probable cause and a warrant.  The FBI's own records show there was not even a reasonable basis for suspicion let only probable cause.  Why anyone that even pretends to have an interest in Civil Liberties is not outraged by this is beyond.

Yet, the notes take it even further.  The entire point of the interview - which violated all FBI standards in how it was conducted - what to manufacture a basis for a Logan Act violation prosecution - which has not be prosecuted in over 200 years and is a Constitutionally dubious basis for prosecution, notwithstanding that the FBI already had the phone records - in my view, in a manner that should be illegal - that would be the purported basis for that prosecution and was aware that they didn't prove the case.  They then literally speculated that their goal should be to get him to lie about it so they could prosecute him or get him fired.

You don't get much clearer proof of dirty cop behavior at this level of play.  After the revelations that virtually no FISA warrant has been properly issued (you may recall that the IG found 100% of a random sample of those applications to be legally deficient), you have something that rises to the level of KGB like manipulation and abuse.

This is a serious issue.  Flynn apparently was coerced into a gulty plea by threats to his son, which again is KGB like, or even mafia-like behavior, to admit to lying about a non-crime.  Is that really the world you want, just so you can gain a temporary partisan advantage?

No joke, these guys at the FBI/DOJ belong in jail. And it looks to me that Mueller and his team should go as well for what appears to be a conspiracy to obstruct justice by covering up for these criminal acts.

TheDrake

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2020, 02:45:11 PM »
Let's see, this started with a snarky political cartoon. There's no link or article or quote talking about any of the notes you refer to. You may have noticed that I routinely disparage the FISA process in general.

Meanwhile...

Quote
“These notes raise questions about the investigation, and it is not surprising that Flynn’s defense team is pressing the defense of entrapment,” said Robert Mintz, a former federal prosecutor now in private practice. “But entrapment is a high bar. It is not enough simply to show that government agencies solicited a criminal act from a defendant. The critical issue for the defense is proving that investigators induced the defendant to engage in criminal conduct that the defendant would not otherwise have committed.”

Let's remember that Flynn actually did what he was asked about, and lied about it. It's that simple, no matter what the motivation and process. There's never an issue if he didn't lie, he goes home and has a sandwich and watches a ballgame.

wmLambert

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2020, 03:20:24 PM »
Let's see, this started with a snarky political cartoon. There's no link or article or quote talking about any of the notes you refer to. You may have noticed that I routinely disparage the FISA process in general.

Meanwhile...

Quote
“These notes raise questions about the investigation, and it is not surprising that Flynn’s defense team is pressing the defense of entrapment,” said Robert Mintz, a former federal prosecutor now in private practice. “But entrapment is a high bar. It is not enough simply to show that government agencies solicited a criminal act from a defendant. The critical issue for the defense is proving that investigators induced the defendant to engage in criminal conduct that the defendant would not otherwise have committed.”

Let's remember that Flynn actually did what he was asked about, and lied about it. It's that simple, no matter what the motivation and process. There's never an issue if he didn't lie, he goes home and has a sandwich and watches a ballgame.

I doubt Robert Mintz's agenda, because entrapment is not a high bar at all. Furthermore, the fruit that fell from that tree is also tainted. If Flynn did what he was asked about he did nothing wrong. Any lying would be based on doing something that was never illegal. He pleaded guilty to protect his family, and in so doing made any statements made to the administration to protest his innocence, which then looked wrong, something to be wiped clean.

Kasandra

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2020, 03:33:02 PM »
It is truly shocking the degree to which you will go to "defend" someone - anyone - aligned with Trump.  That's why I called you a psychofant.  You can't see what you're doing. I say that without snark.  Biden is still a "sex fiend" even if the Reade thing goes away, though, right?

TheDrake

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2020, 03:33:38 PM »
If an undercover asks a drug dealer for drugs, it isn't entrapment. If he asks a random person on the street, it's entrapment. Flynn was a dealer. You don't get to claim, hey I lied but it wasn't really a crime I lied about. You just tell the truth.

wmLambert

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2020, 04:23:35 PM »
It is truly shocking the degree to which you will go to "defend" someone - anyone - aligned with Trump.  That's why I called you a psychofant.  You can't see what you're doing. I say that without snark.  Biden is still a "sex fiend" even if the Reade thing goes away, though, right?

No, you are still snarky, also and pursuing falsehoods by assuming your own incorrect preconceived notions trump actual facts. When you are wrong, and I know the disinformation that you believe is wrong, I can only try to help you understand. Nof making an honest effort is on you.

If the Reade thing turns around, which is hard to even pretend, then of course I would not fight facts. The problem is, you fight before having facts, and insult anyone trying to make you more knowledgeable.

Kasandra

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2020, 04:37:07 PM »
It is truly shocking the degree to which you will go to "defend" someone - anyone - aligned with Trump.  That's why I called you a psychofant.  You can't see what you're doing. I say that without snark.  Biden is still a "sex fiend" even if the Reade thing goes away, though, right?

If the Reade thing turns around, which is hard to even pretend, then of course I would not fight facts. The problem is, you fight before having facts, and insult anyone trying to make you more knowledgeable.

wmLambert, read this response slowly to make sure you understand what I'm saying.  There's no snark here.

1. You say it "is hard to even pretend" that the Reade thing "turns around", meaning it's hard to believe that what she claims is not true. 
2. But then you then accuse me of fighting "before having facts". 
3. You ignore that you don't have any facts to support your claim that she is telling the truth, do you?  Stories told by her neighbors are interesting and useful, but not in and of themselves facts, right? 
3. You think you are trying to make me "more knowledgeable", but you only do that by insisting that I need to agree that the "sex fiend" did it. 

Your chain of supposition and willingness to believe just one side of a story of sexual abuse that doesn't have facts to back it up isn't all that strange, but you never ever see a side of the story that doesn't align with your Trump obsession.  That is very strange.

Seriati

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2020, 04:40:18 PM »
Quote
“These notes raise questions about the investigation, and it is not surprising that Flynn’s defense team is pressing the defense of entrapment,” said Robert Mintz, a former federal prosecutor now in private practice. “But entrapment is a high bar. It is not enough simply to show that government agencies solicited a criminal act from a defendant. The critical issue for the defense is proving that investigators induced the defendant to engage in criminal conduct that the defendant would not otherwise have committed.”

Let's remember that Flynn actually did what he was asked about, and lied about it. It's that simple, no matter what the motivation and process. There's never an issue if he didn't lie, he goes home and has a sandwich and watches a ballgame.

What a lie you are telling yourself.  There's no evidence that he did lie.  The FBI records on the interview say they didn't think he was lying.  You seem to think that being bankrupted and blackmailed by threats to your child into agreeing to a plea deal is somehow proof of a lie?

*censored* you.

I am beginning to hope that this kind of process gets turned on each and everyone of you that is defending it.  Maybe that's what it take to make you realize that if you don't fight this you have no rights.

Seriati: Please see your email. -OrneryMod
« Last Edit: May 06, 2020, 04:38:06 AM by OrneryMod »

Seriati

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2020, 04:43:43 PM »
If an undercover asks a drug dealer for drugs, it isn't entrapment. If he asks a random person on the street, it's entrapment. Flynn was a dealer. You don't get to claim, hey I lied but it wasn't really a crime I lied about. You just tell the truth.

If an undercover FBI agent knows you were having an affair, which is not a crime, and arranges for an informal meeting with you and then asks you whether you watched the ball game last night knowing that's your cover.  Then prosecutes you for lying to the FBI when you say you watched the ball game and leave out the affair that's all cool to you?

So Bill Clinton should have been removed from office and sent to federal prison for lying about Monica?  Andrew McCabe should be in federal prison for lying about leaking?  James Comey should be in federal prison for lying about his first meeting with Trump?

Kasandra

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2020, 04:52:20 PM »
Quote
What a lie you are telling yourself.  There's no evidence that he did lie.  The FBI records on the interview say they didn't think he was lying.  You seem to think that being bankrupted and blackmailed by threats to your child into agreeing to a plea deal is somehow proof of a lie?

Ok, since you think guilt has to be proven, where's your proof that Flynn was being bankrupted and blackmailed?  Flynn hasn't challenged that what he said to the FBI was a lie, has he?  If you can't come up with proof, have the dignity to admit that it's just what you want to believe.

TheDrake

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2020, 05:14:58 PM »
Quote
“These notes raise questions about the investigation, and it is not surprising that Flynn’s defense team is pressing the defense of entrapment,” said Robert Mintz, a former federal prosecutor now in private practice. “But entrapment is a high bar. It is not enough simply to show that government agencies solicited a criminal act from a defendant. The critical issue for the defense is proving that investigators induced the defendant to engage in criminal conduct that the defendant would not otherwise have committed.”

Let's remember that Flynn actually did what he was asked about, and lied about it. It's that simple, no matter what the motivation and process. There's never an issue if he didn't lie, he goes home and has a sandwich and watches a ballgame.

What a lie you are telling yourself.  There's no evidence that he did lie.  The FBI records on the interview say they didn't think he was lying.  You seem to think that being bankrupted and blackmailed by threats to your child into agreeing to a plea deal is somehow proof of a lie?

*censored* you.

I am beginning to hope that this kind of process gets turned on each and everyone of you that is defending it.  Maybe that's what it take to make you realize that if you don't fight this you have no rights.

Did I defend the process? Prosecutors and police routinely do this type of thing. It isn't right. But it wasn't "o man, we just had to get this flynn guy so bad that we did something completely out of the ordinary".

If Biden gets called in to be interrogated about his son, will the same people be defending the process if he gets nailed for not mentioning a meeting with him at some point, even though there's no evidence of any crime otherwise?

In your scenario, the correct move would be to refuse to answer, not to claim your fabricated story.

The others? I wouldn't really mind them being forced to plead guilty like Flynn, and be released on probation which was the likely outcome.

Seriati

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2020, 11:38:19 AM »
Did I defend the process?

Yes.  That is exactly what you are doing.  By the FBI's own account they didn't believe that Flynn was trying to lie, they saw no evidence of it.  That's with them asking him gotcha questions.  The legal requirement for prosecution is that he has to lie knowingly and willfully.  In other words, if he's not trying to lie then the inaccuracy of his statement is NOT IN FACT enough to prosecute.

Against these facts, if you're defending the prosecution, you are in fact defending an illegal process.  By the way, it's also been argued that without an actual controversy to which the lies relate they are not prosecutable either.  They couldn't for instance have prosecuted him if he lied about the color of the walls in his kitchen, even if he did it on purpose unless that fact was relevant to their case.  There was no real case here, and his inaccuracy - whether knowing or not - was in no way material to any proper case they could have brought.  Ergo, once again defending this at all is defending an illegal  process.

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Prosecutors and police routinely do this type of thing. It isn't right. But it wasn't "o man, we just had to get this flynn guy so bad that we did something completely out of the ordinary".

Prosecutors that "do this" should be going to jail, this crossed a lot of lines even for prosecutors.  As to why they "had to get him" it doesn't appear that it had anything to do with a crime.  If I was going to speculate, I'd tend to agree with McCarthey's take on it https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/05/fbi-set-up-michael-flynn-to-preserve-trump-russia-probe/.  Flynn had to go because there was no way they would have been able to prevent him, and thus the White House, from finding out exactly what they were doing with Crossfire Hurricane.  In other words, they had to remove him to protect their extra-legal process. 

I mean look at who they targeted in the Trump admin and how.  It was the head of the NSA, and then it was to force recusal of the AG.  They were determined to maintain their secret investigation without review, and they later appointed Mueller to make it a crime (obstruction of justice) for anyone in the administration to even try to dig into what they were doing - or to investigate the illegal acts they were committing.  This was a deliberate set of acts, designed to undermine the lawful government of the United States and to insulate themselves while doing so.  I don't care whether you think they had an honest belief that the Trump admin was working with the Russians or not, the way they chose to handle it was criminal, and it's close to treason if not already there.

What killed the investigation?  Literally appointment of a non-conflicted AG.  Mueller never could justify his 2 year investigation so he closed it down.  He released his report, documenting every rumor he could think of that was damning, yet despite having unfettered access to all of these agents, their work, their reports, their notes and their filings - leaving out what even a first year law student would have known was extreme evidence of unethical behavior of the principals.  Honestly, everything that is coming to light 3 and a half years into the first 4 year period of the administration of President Trump was there before the election.  This was a MASSIVE coverup.  If Mueller was really doing his job, why didn't he reveal any of this?  Wouldn't obstruction of justice by the FBI be relevant?

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If Biden gets called in to be interrogated about his son, will the same people be defending the process if he gets nailed for not mentioning a meeting with him at some point, even though there's no evidence of any crime otherwise?

Biden won't get called out by me for lack of memory.  I don't personally believe he can remember anything with consistency.  And if Hunter committed a crime he should pay.  If his father corruptly facilitated it he should pay.  If that can't be proven then they should not pay.

The solution there is transparency - which you don't have and the media is doing it's dogged best not to provide, yay yay good team! - and making a decision about who you vote for.  Seems impossible to me that Biden would be the candidate with this kind of issue outstanding and the media doing everything it can to bury it rather than vet it, but that's the world we live in.

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In your scenario, the correct move would be to refuse to answer, not to claim your fabricated story.

So the incorrect answer was to take a meeting with the FBI and try to cooperate in goodfaith with their concerns?  You realize that the White House meets with the FBI all the time, in fact the FBI counterintelligence operations are literally supposed to report to the White House and be controlled by them.  That's certainly what they did for Obama.  Yet, here, once again they assumed authority they don't have to run one without White House involvement and control.  In any event, the entire "issue" of Flynn's Logan Act violation was only in the media because the FBI and the Obama White House illegally unmasked Flynn in a communication and illegally leaked it to the media (along with the Logan Act reference).  So they made up a crime - which they knew didn't apply - and leaked enough to get stories circulated so they could get him to take the meeting.  Why would he suddenly be suspicious about the FBI with whom he's going to be working and in some respects managing for four years?  If Flynn thought he answered honestly does it change your view at all?

Cause if it doesn't you really are ignoring the law and ethics.

It sounds like the policy you are asserting is that even the innocent should never speak to any federal agents ever again.  Going to make them doing their jobs tougher.  The reason we have a knowledge and intent requirement in these laws is supposed to be to protect those who are speaking to the FBI in good faith from technical violations based on imperfect memory.  It sounds very likely that this is exactly what Flynn did and the FBI's documentation literally supports that.  There is zero evidence that anyone involved in this process operated consistent with their obligations.  Everything they did was designed to trigger a technicality.

And conveniently, you ignore that the FBI/DOJ seemingly bankrupted a man without even believing he knew he made a false statement, and threatened to prosecute his son on another charge that almost never has been enforced (keep in mind, the threat to Flynn on the Logan Act was last "prosecuted" unsucessfully almost 200 years ago, and is in fact Constitutionally dubious and even then was NEVER intended to limit the members of an incoming administration for having such conversations.  I mean Trump had hundreds of conversations with foreign leaders in the same time period - no charges?).

I've been consistently opposed to the ethics of plea deals where prosecutors manufacture witnesses to perjure themselves for the government, and this goes way way beyond that. 

Quote
The others? I wouldn't really mind them being forced to plead guilty like Flynn, and be released on probation which was the likely outcome.

Well again then, I wish upon you the fair process you seem to be okay with for others.  (Except not really, because even as reprehensible as I find the position that you're taking - which appears to me to be that no process can be considered abusive if the "guilty" confess, I don't really want anyone's life be ruined by prosecutors out to manufacture a crime with the unlimited resources of the government behind them).  I guess you're okay if they beat him into a confession?  Or to admit he lied?  What about the Japanese process where virtually everyone accused eventually signs a confession while held in custody?  My goodness we let people off if they weren't read their Miranda rights.

I'm literally just stunned that people seemingly want this level of abuse to be built into the system so long as it hits the other side.


Fenring

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2020, 12:54:32 PM »
I'm literally just stunned that people seemingly want this level of abuse to be built into the system so long as it hits the other side.

Good write-up, Seriati. On this particular quote I'd like to make mention of a recurring issue, which is that IMO abuses that occur in the system (let's call this generally 'corruption') can at least in large part be traced to the presence of money in politics. There are competing factions in the game, 'sides' trying to defeat each other, and large interests involved precisely because there's a lot of $$$ on the line for whoever wins the game. You get the right legislation, the right contracts, access to the gravy train. Take away the prize, take away the access, and the weasels (and their minions) will have nothing to play at.

I know you adamantly believe that the left is more at fault than the right for various abuses going on, which I won't address, but if you believe, as I do, that eliminate abuses built into the system is paramount, then my suggestion to you is the partisan politics is both a symptom but also a cause of these abuses. As long as the incentive and the mechanisms are there, people will exploit them. You can expect nothing else when putting people in a game with rules and a win condition. They will try to win, design intent be damned. They do this in every game and MMO there is, and now just imagine that your actual family benefits if you win (unlike WOW, where your family probably never sees you...).

Seriati

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2020, 04:09:25 PM »
Fenring, this abuse doesn't tie to money in politics.  Money has always been in politics.  There's even a giant concept that used to exist whereby the election winner would fire everyone in government and replace them with their friends and allies to let them extract out the "benefits" of government, and we still somewhat functioned.

What changed is when FDR broke the courts and ushered in the Administrative State.  It started with good intentions, professions "free from partisan politics" to run our agencies, professional civil service exams to establish objective credentials.  But it didn't stay there.  You're absolutely right that people see where power lies and they plan accordingly, but unfortunately becoming part of the administrative state is consistent with one political parties goals and antithetical to the others.  As a result, we've got an administative state that gives 95% of its political donations to the DNC, and that wields permanent and administration spanning power. 

You've seen it in action, Obama can create an entitlement called DACA solely be will, and in four years of trying it can't be unwound by the next administration.

That's exactly what happened here.  The FBI, DOJ and the Intelligence Agencies literally refused to accept the results of the election and they did everything could, including illegal actions, to prevent that administration from achieving it's policy goals.  You want to talk about a lack of Democracy, did you vote for Comey, or Brennan or McCabe?  Did you vote for Mueller?  Michael Flynn was bankrupted for what may not have been an intentional lie about a non-crime, at least the FBI didn't believe it was intentional - which like it or note should have terminated the inquiry.  Brennan openly lied under oath to Congress.  Yet to see charges.  Hillary's staffers caught in lies during the email investigation and giving immunity deals without providing any testimony - if this process was legit, why not put them in prison or force them to "tell the truth" about Hillary's orders on the server?  There's no non-political answer to that, and that 100% reflects the problem here.  This is not justice.

rightleft22

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2020, 04:38:16 PM »
I needed that - Laughed my but off
You guy's

Seriati

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2020, 04:42:12 PM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/30/no-michael-flynn-wasnt-set-up/

 I read the WP piece.  They are literally the mouthpiece of the DNC, but that aside they are completely inaccurate in this opinion.

Quote
The FBI interviewed Flynn in January 2017 as part of its investigation into Russian interference with the 2016 presidential election and possible Russian contacts with the Trump campaign — an investigation that the Justice Department inspector general later determined was proper.

Factually false.  FBI records demonstrate that they had determined to close investigation of Flynn prior to the interview, and Strook deliberately forced the file to stay open.  They actually interviewed him to gain leverage over him.

It's also a lie of omission to reference the DOJ IG's finding.  What the IG "found" was that the "legal predicate" to spy on a campaign was so low that it was virtually not possible not to satisfy it (and they recommended multiple changes consistent with that) and that they met the non-existant burden.  The DOJ already announced that they disagree on that point.  The thing to remember about the IG reports is that they literally do not make not quality judgements, if someone doesn't admit wrongdoing the IG doesn't report wrongdoing.

In any event, the IG never made any claim about interviewing Flynn about a Logan Act "violation."  And the claim on CrossFire Hurricane was literally mooted weeks earlier when the FBI moved to close the case on Flynn.

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In one excerpt, an agent wrote, “What is our goal? Truth/admission or to get him to lie, so we can prosecute him or get him fired?” The context of the notes, and whether they reflect a conversation or just personal musings, is not clear.

That's not unclear.  Truth is not a crime, the goal had to be to get him to misstate something.  The fact that they were trying to "get him fired" is not even within the permitted Lexicon for the  FBI.  The WP ignored that.

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The claim that Flynn was “set up” assumes there was no legitimate reason for his interview, that it was all just a trap. That’s plainly not true. Flynn was a critical witness in a highly sensitive investigation. The FBI knew he had at least some contacts with the Russian ambassador while working for Trump. Even though agents had a recording of a call between Flynn and the ambassador, an interview was essential to ask the many follow-up questions, such as: Who asked you to make the call? What was done as a result of the call? Were there other calls or meetings?

Actually all that's a misstatement.  This interview wasn't about Crossfire Hurricane, it was about the fake Logan Act violation.  That's exactly why it's a trap and not a legitimate investigatory step. 

This is the WaPo trying to throw smoke by pretending that any legitimate activity should be reconstrued as connected to their fake theme.  Flynn's discussion with the Russian ambassador was part of his job.  The FBI illegally unmasked him and leaked his conversation along with the fake Logan Act claim.  They took affirmative steps to create this situation so that they could exploit it.  That's an actual conspiracy.

Interviewing Flynn about the Crossfire Hurricane investigation was actually impeded by what they did here.  They interviewed hundreds of members of the White House staff.

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More important, it’s almost impossible for an interview like this to amount to a “set up,” because Flynn was entirely in control of his own fate. Any witness interviewed by the FBI has essentially three choices: tell the truth, lie or assert the right to remain silent. The FBI had no way of knowing which option Flynn would choose when he walked into the interview. All Flynn had to do was tell the truth, or tell the agents he wasn’t comfortable talking to them. He chose instead to lie.

This is shivery writing.  It's reflective of a complete disdain for our civil rights.  Any "witness" interviewed by the FBI?  The FBI took deliberate and intentional steps not to follow their own procedures for interviewing a witness.  They deliberately went out of their way to interfere with counsel being present, specifically told him that counsel didn't need to be involved, refused to provide any of their procedural warnings that are required.  They ran this as a spy situation, and even then they didn't get what they wanted, as the FBI agents didn't believe he intentionally lied.

And "chose to lie"?  The FBI agents literally said they didn't believe he meant to lie.  They didn't refresh his memory, another "standard" they ignored.  So why does the WP write this as a "choice"?  Cause the intent wasn't there, which makes the prosecution itself criminal, but if they pretend it was a choice they get to assume the intent.

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Nor is there any basis for a claim that Flynn was “entrapped.” Entrapment requires evidence that the government so pressured the defendant that his will was overborne and he committed a crime he was not otherwise predisposed to commit. Flynn was a military leader who rose to the rank of lieutenant general, led troops in combat and became national security adviser. The idea that he was so intimidated by a couple of FBI agents during a consensual interview that he simply had no choice but to lie is laughable.

Again, the FBI agents didn't believe he lied.  The fact is that Flynn has asserted he didn't take their deal until he was bankrupt and they made threats against his son.  The WP pretends that Flynn's actions were intentional, and that his admission under threat to his family makes this okay.  They write the words to make you think this police state activity was legit.

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Additionally, as part of his guilty plea, Flynn admitted to repeatedly lying to the Justice Department about his work as an agent for the government of Turkey — work that he continued, and concealed, while he was working for Trump.

They trot this out to try and establish a pattern.  But FARA has never been enforced in the way it was during Crossfire Hurricane, and its never been applied in an even handed manner.  Even then, as I understand it Flynn's "violations" there are also probably not a crime.

Quote
It’s true that agents and prosecutors in the investigation by special counsel Robert S. Mueller III later used Flynn’s lies to persuade him to plead guilty and cooperate in that investigation. But anyone who is surprised by that has no idea how law enforcement works. That is criminal investigations 101 — commonplace and essential in large, complex cases. Any witness who lies to the FBI runs the risk of facing such tactics.

Again, the "lies" have to be knowing.  That's a real failing here.  It's also a real failing that "Any witness who lies to the FBI" does not include anyone associated with the DNC, who get immunity even if they do lie.

So why did the WP write a story about this?  No reason other than political.  They are not honest and they're never going to hold those on the left to this standard.  McCabe lied to the FBI, are they calling for his imprisonment?  Comey lied to Congress and the Administration, including in a manner that obstructed justice?  Are they calling for his jailing?  Brennan?  What about Mueller?  He deliberately violated attorney-client privilege during his investigation, knowing he was never going to prosecute a case in court but realizing he could turn those records over to Congress.   Should he be in prison?

Everything about this process has been malicious and abusive.

TheDrake

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2020, 05:04:23 PM »
So he just happened to forget who he talked to and didn't really mean to lie, even though he knew exactly what they were going to ask about?

TheDrake

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2020, 05:06:07 PM »
Also he's not in prison.

DonaldD

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2020, 05:56:23 PM »
There's a certain "grasping at straws"-iness to the recent Flynn hullabaloo in the trumpy echo chamber...

Seriati

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2020, 06:41:14 PM »
So he just happened to forget who he talked to and didn't really mean to lie, even though he knew exactly what they were going to ask about?

He didn't forget who he talked to.  The "lie" was about part of the conversation, not that he had a conversation.  I'd love to see how well you do about answering questions about the specific words you use in one conversation picked at random out of hundreds that you have.  I take extensive notes around calls and there's still no way I'd recall every thing that was discussed flawlessly.

Sometimes, 3 people in the same conversation disagree about a point from the conversation.  Never been there?  Cause if you have you could be part of a perjury prosecution.

Kasandra

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2020, 08:22:02 AM »
So he just happened to forget who he talked to and didn't really mean to lie, even though he knew exactly what they were going to ask about?

He didn't forget who he talked to.  The "lie" was about part of the conversation, not that he had a conversation.  I'd love to see how well you do about answering questions about the specific words you use in one conversation picked at random out of hundreds that you have.  I take extensive notes around calls and there's still no way I'd recall every thing that was discussed flawlessly.

Sometimes, 3 people in the same conversation disagree about a point from the conversation.  Never been there?  Cause if you have you could be part of a perjury prosecution.

More circumstantiality; you are a master.  Nowhere in your short rebuttal do you say he is innocent of the charges, only imply it.  If he decided he was guilty, why don't you take his word for it, or are you accusing him of lying, too?

TheDrake

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2020, 08:26:06 AM »
It just slipped his mind that he was discussing sanctions. This isn't some random part of a conversation. It was a discussion about sanctions with the Russian ambassador just as they were coming in to effect?

Seriati

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2020, 09:14:55 AM »
I literally just read today that the transcript has never been provided to the defense.  They actually dispute whether he did discuss sanctions.  The reports on the FBI notes, say that he in multiple places said that they may have discussed something like that or demurred on certain answers.  His lawyers also pointed out, though I haven't seen it restated, that Flynn had concerns about disclosing confidential or secret information that the agents may not have been authorized to receive.  You know the kind of things that the White House counsel might have been able to advise on if they were there.

Kasandra, you are a broken record.  There is no abuse that is too much for you so long as it's against your political enemies and no investigation of your team could ever be justified.  You have no answer - apparently - why a lie that's not even a crime, which is seeming more likely given the FBI's own decision that the Crossfire Hurricane case on Flynn should have been closed prior to this meeting and the irrelevancy of the Logan Act "violation" to which this related, deserves bankrupting someone that the FBI didn't believe meant to lie.  But lies to protect Hillary get immunity deals, and lies by the same individuals involved in this malicious prosecution, like say Andrew McCabe, don't need to be prosecuted. 

I'm disappointed in TheDrake, I just expect this level unthinking partiality from you.

Kasandra

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2020, 09:30:28 AM »
Quote
Kasandra, you are a broken record.  There is no abuse that is too much for you so long as it's against your political enemies and no investigation of your team could ever be justified.  You have no answer - apparently - why a lie that's not even a crime, which is seeming more likely given the FBI's own decision that the Crossfire Hurricane case on Flynn should have been closed prior to this meeting and the irrelevancy of the Logan Act "violation" to which this related, deserves bankrupting someone that the FBI didn't believe meant to lieBut lies to protect Hillary get immunity deals, and lies by the same individuals involved in this malicious prosecution, like say Andrew McCabe, don't need to be prosecuted.

Are you claiming that it's not a crime to lie to the FBI?  You're saying he didn't mean to lie (but couldn't help himself)?  Did he not mean to plead guilty to lying to the FBI?  Are you claiming that McCabe's - alleged - crime means that Flynn is innocent?  Do you ever stop to wonder if your fabulous tales of perfidy by anyone not firmly aligned with Republicans might be a little biased? 

Seriati

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2020, 09:53:27 AM »
I answered your questions already.  We all know you don't know what you're talking about, won't do any research and will just continually restate your original premises as new questions.

But in order:

The crime requires intent that wasn't present, by the FBI's own records, ergo it was a malicious prosecution.  Not clear he did lie, maybe you can cite the exact quote that proves it.  His explanation for the guilty plea was straight forward, they bankrupted him and then threatened his child with another fake and malicious prosecution.  No, claiming it shows a double standard of justice and that you endorse it so long as it favors your team.  Yep, unfortunately for you this real evidence that the bias was 100% on your team.

The acts those agents engaged in are unquestionably abusive and unethical, and very likely illegal, and if this was done for the reason of preventing Flynn and the White House from overseeing the  investigation being run by those agents, it's both obstruction of justice - as in literally it's the crime - and an attempted coup d'etat. 

Kasandra

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2020, 10:10:38 AM »
Sorry if I keep repeating facts in a way that seems repetitious.  It's just that I can't wrap my head around the fact that you refuse to be influenced by them.  I'll try to do better by reframing them using different what-abouts and casting unrelated partisan aspersions.  As for your repeatedly repetitious insistance that Flynn didn't mean to lie, that in fact didn't really lie at all, and that the FBI agrees with those assertions, well, all I can say is,  the FBI begs to differ.

TheDrake

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2020, 04:30:03 PM »
The "smoking gun" isn't that smoky. They are strategizing and preparing to conduct a legitimate interview and using standard pressure tactics. Legal experts and prosecutors confirm there is nothing really out of the ordinary in the approach. Trying to catch somebody you believe to be guilty in a lie isn't some dystopian destruction of individual rights.

As far as disclosing secret information, I don't think you get to lie to a law enforcement agency, I think you once again refuse to say anything.

Kasandra

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2020, 05:36:39 PM »
As far as reliable and credible news sources go, the Daily Mail also has the best semi-nude peeping tom and nip-slip pics working for it.

Kasandra

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2020, 06:06:51 PM »
As far as reliable and credible news sources go, the Daily Mail also has the best semi-nude peeping tom and nip-slip pics working for it.

Oops, wrong thread.  Reposted on the other.

yossarian22c

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2020, 10:25:11 PM »
The acts those agents engaged in are unquestionably abusive and unethical, and very likely illegal, and if this was done for the reason of preventing Flynn and the White House from overseeing the  investigation being run by those agents, it's both obstruction of justice - as in literally it's the crime - and an attempted coup d'etat.

Still waiting on the indictments to come down. If its so obvious these people broke the law maybe we'll start to see some of them get indicted and go to jail, so far its only been Trump's associates to be indicted. I'm not going to spend a ton of time arguing the back and forth of what happened until that happens. Trump has his man at the head of the justice department, has appointed a special prosecutor and had an inspector general do an investigation into the matter. These investigations have now been going on as long or longer than Mueller's investigation, given that they haven't identified any criminal acts yet shouldn't they be shut down by the arguments the Trump supporters were putting out about shutting down Mueller?

yossarian22c

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2020, 12:02:27 AM »
Serious question. Has trump “drained the swamp” in any meaningful way? Rooted out corruption, reduced the influence of money on politics, etc?

If so, how?

As a side note I’m not interested in hearing how the deep state stopped him or has been working against him achieving this objective.

Fenring

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2020, 12:24:08 AM »
As far as disclosing secret information, I don't think you get to lie to a law enforcement agency, I think you once again refuse to say anything.

That's very easy to say when you are not the one being maneuvered and leaned on. Even the most humdrum cop shows detail the various ways even an office with no real leverage can make it sound very dangerous for you to keep quiet. Switch that up and make it people who potentially can dig up all sorts of dirt on you and blackmail you in other ways, and it's not looking good to just tell them to piss off.

Kasandra

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2020, 06:16:31 AM »
As far as disclosing secret information, I don't think you get to lie to a law enforcement agency, I think you once again refuse to say anything.

That's very easy to say when you are not the one being maneuvered and leaned on. Even the most humdrum cop shows detail the various ways even an office with no real leverage can make it sound very dangerous for you to keep quiet. Switch that up and make it people who potentially can dig up all sorts of dirt on you and blackmail you in other ways, and it's not looking good to just tell them to piss off.

Just to be clear, you agree with Seriati on this?  The poor, dumb son of a bitch couldn't stand up to FBI questioning?

Seriati

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #40 on: May 07, 2020, 05:41:15 PM »
https://thehill.com/regulation/496649-read-doj-motion-to-dismiss-flynn-case

Posted this on the other thread as well, but literally walks through what I said.  The only thing they didn't mention is whether his son was threatened.  I also found out more about why his prior firm was "conflicted."   Flynn used them to make his FARA filings, and they didn't make one in respect of his activities in Turkey.  If that was a legal mistake they committed malpractice, and if they weighed their own interest in having that dropped in advising Flynn to accept a plea on the other charge then they may be facing disbarment and severe  consequences. 

Crunch

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #41 on: May 07, 2020, 06:29:13 PM »
As far as disclosing secret information, I don't think you get to lie to a law enforcement agency, I think you once again refuse to say anything.

That's very easy to say when you are not the one being maneuvered and leaned on. Even the most humdrum cop shows detail the various ways even an office with no real leverage can make it sound very dangerous for you to keep quiet. Switch that up and make it people who potentially can dig up all sorts of dirt on you and blackmail you in other ways, and it's not looking good to just tell them to piss off.

Just to be clear, you agree with Seriati on this?  The poor, dumb son of a bitch couldn't stand up to FBI questioning?
Clearly you’ve no idea what happened. smh

The FBI launched a biased and illegal investigation on Flynn in an effort to overturn the election. They financially destroyed Flynn. Then, when Flynn still didn’t crack, the FBI went after Flynn’s family. It wasn’t just questioning, it was extortion.


Kasandra

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #42 on: May 07, 2020, 10:12:27 PM »
TWS in spades.

wmLambert

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #43 on: May 14, 2020, 12:49:09 PM »
With the new releases of documents that prove Obama's fingerprints over the attempted coup, there is now a direct path toward that perp-walk to the prison bus for him:

https://amgreatness.com/2020/05/11/is-obamas-long-history-of-playing-dirty-finally-catching-up-with-him/

yossarian22c

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #44 on: May 14, 2020, 12:57:03 PM »
With the new releases of documents that prove Obama's fingerprints over the attempted coup, there is now a direct path toward that perp-walk to the prison bus for him:

https://amgreatness.com/2020/05/11/is-obamas-long-history-of-playing-dirty-finally-catching-up-with-him/

After two+ years of investigations into this we have yet to see a single indictment of anyone associated with this. Even if what they did was unethical it seems like they stayed on the right side of the law. I'll believe it when I see it on Obama personally facing charges.

wmLambert

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Re: Time for the Swamp perp-walk
« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2020, 09:43:39 PM »
...After two+ years of investigations into this we have yet to see a single indictment of anyone associated with this. Even if what they did was unethical it seems like they stayed on the right side of the law. I'll believe it when I see it on Obama personally facing charges.

No, not on the right side of the law - just in control of the process.

(From the link:) "...acting Director of National Intelligence Richard Grenell delivered more secret documents to the Justice Department last week that could prove “Barack Obama knew about a lot of this with Michael Flynn a lot earlier than we know.

"That news jives with recent revelations pointing to Obama’s behind-the-scenes management in the targeting of Flynn, a one-time Obama intelligence official who landed on the president’s unforgiving hit list. According to court documents, Obama himself was the source of the leak about the infamous call between Flynn and Russian Ambassador Sergei Kislyak.

"In her August 2017 interview with Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s lawyers, former acting Attorney General Sally Yates revealed that President Obama notified her about the Flynn-Kislyak call “on January 5, 2017 while in the Oval Office,” the notes detail. That briefing, held for the ostensible purpose of discussing the intelligence community assessment on Russia’s election interference, also included Joe Biden, James Clapper, James Comey, John Brennan, and Susan Rice.

“After the briefing, Obama dismissed the group but asked Yates and Comey to stay behind. Obama started by saying he had ‘learned of the information about Flynn’ and his conversation with Kislyak about sanctions,” Yates told investigators. “At that point, Yates had no idea what the president was talking about.” Turns out, Obama and Comey were setting her up to pursue the bogus Logan Act allegations, which she did.

"Yates’s bombshell is just the latest proof to tie “No Drama” Obama to the collusion hoax."