Author Topic: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch  (Read 9257 times)

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #150 on: July 22, 2020, 11:58:25 AM »
Last night looks to have been rather eventful in Portland. Broken windows at the Federal Building, and attempted arson of a government building among other things going by Twitter. Portland Police haven't posted their police log version of things, but given that all of what happened involved the feds, they may now be under pressure from their Mayor to not report on that stuff... Or there simply is that much to report on that it's taking longer than usual to compile, after their Mayor banned on-site Federal co-ordinators with the PPB, so the information flow is being hampered.

Edit: It's missing from the index for their news feed on their own site, but could find it via twitter:

https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=251017
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On July 21, 2020, several groups of people gathered throughout Portland to include Revolution Hall, City Hall, and Lownsdale and Chapman Squares. The groups marched and rallied for several hours. Around 9 p.m., most of the groups converged on Southwest 3rd Avenue outside the Justice Center and the Federal Courthouse. During this time, the large group of a couple thousand people blocked Southwest 3rd Avenue, danced, and made speeches.

Around 10:15 p.m., members of the group were spotted bringing plywood to the Justice Center. At 10:40 p.m., members of the group started to kick the front doors of Central Precinct while others dragged a large metal fence to the west side of the Federal Courthouse. At 11 p.m., several group members kicked and pounded on plywood attached to the west exterior glass doors of the Federal Courthouse. The people who kicked and pounded on the plywood were using hammers, crowbars and other pry tools. These people carried bats and shields as well as wore helmets and gas masks. Soon after, at 11:05 p.m., the group breeched the west side doors of the Federal Courthouse.

Such a moving display of "peaceful protest."

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At 11:12 p.m., Federal Law Enforcement began dispersing the crowd using crowd control munitions.

Those jerks.  ::)

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The group moved westbound on Southwest Main Street, but soon after, the group returned back to Southwest 3rd Avenue. When the group returned to Southwest 3rd Avenue and Southwest Main Street, they aggressively ran towards the portico on the west side of the Federal Courthouse. At 11:25 p.m., Federal Law Enforcement once again dispersed the crowd.

Around 12:30 a.m., group members once again converged on the west side of the Federal Courthouse. This time, the group set a fire outside the west side doors located on the portico. Federal Law Enforcement exited the building and began to disperse the crowd.

At 12:45 a.m., the group collected fences and road barricades and began advancing on the Federal Courthouse using pieces of the fence as a shield. When people reached the portico on the west side of the Federal Courthouse they began stacking up pieces of the fence and barricades, which created a hazard to those who needed to exit the building.

Around 1:00 a.m., some people associated with the group opened a fire hydrant at Southwest 3rd Avenue and Southwest Taylor Street and added soap to the water causing a hazard downtown. Some other people downtown set several small fires while other people vandalized and spray painted both city, federal, and private property. At 1:27 a.m., another fire was lit outside an exit door on the south side of the Federal Courthouse and the group successfully tore off a large piece of plywood protecting some glass doors on the west side of the building. At 1:45 a.m., Federal Police Officers once again were forced to disperse the crowd west from the building. During the dispersal, a large fire was started in the middle of Lownsdale Square.

Over the next several hours, Federal Police Officers continued to disperse the crowd westbound and the group slowly dissipated.

Portland Police were not present during any of the activity described. Portland Police did not engage with any crowds and did not deploy any CS gas. No arrests were made by Portland Police.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2020, 12:07:46 PM by TheDeamon »

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #151 on: July 23, 2020, 10:49:51 AM »
In keeping with the Feds coming out on past nights to put out fires near the Federal building, Portland's Mayor winds up on the receiving end of Federal crowd dispersal efforts once they do decide to go out and douse the large fire just outside their building(and inside of their security perimeter). An overhead shot of the fire in question can be found at the top of the following article:

https://katu.com/news/local/tear-gas-deployed-mayor-ted-wheeler-in-the-middle-fire-outside-federal-courthouse

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PORTLAND, Ore. — A pile of debris burned outside the federal courthouse late Wednesday night as Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler attended a nearby protest.

Tear gas was deployed at around that time and fireworks exploded near the courthouse and the Justice Center.

A KATU crew who was near the mayor when the tear gas was deployed said it was likely Wheeler got caught in the gas.

And there is news footage of the dear leader Mayor of Portland being right next to that fire as well...

But it wasn't very cozy for the Mayor when it came to the protesters either:

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While many protesters were against Wheeler and said so, the crowded was largely accepting of his presence. But nearing midnight, the crowd turned on him. A reporter for the New York Times tweeted video of protesters swearing at the mayor as he entered a building with bodyguards struggling to keep protesters at bay.

Or for a more in depth look at parts of the incident:
https://katu.com/news/local/portland-mayor-ted-wheeler-experiences-federal-officers-tear-gas-at-protest
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PORTLAND, Ore. — Mayor Ted Wheeler stood alongside protesters Wednesday night as federal officers unleashed tear gas on the crowd.

Portland Police Bureau said they declared the protest a riot at around 12:30 a.m.

Before that, they said Wheeler addressed the crowd outside the Justice Center at around 9:15 p.m. before he walked with them to the federal courthouse and stood with demonstrators at the fence.

Soon after, police say people in the group began throwing flares and other incendiaries over the fence on the west side of the federal courthouse and started a large fire.

Some people in the crowd breeched the fence while others kicked and shook it, police said. This resulted in federal officers coming out of the federal courthouse and using munitions to disperse the crowd.

Wheeler was likely hit with tear gas at around 11:15 p.m. KATU spoke to Wheeler before he reached the fence. We asked if he is still in communication with Acting Secretary of Homeland Security Chad Wolf and he said no. He said there's no more room for negotiation and the federal officers need to leave the city.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 10:53:36 AM by TheDeamon »

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #152 on: July 23, 2020, 11:09:58 AM »
Summary of events as per the Portland Police:
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=251017
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On July 21, 2020, several groups of people gathered throughout Portland to include Revolution Hall, City Hall, and Lownsdale and Chapman Squares. The groups marched and rallied for several hours. Around 9 p.m., most of the groups converged on Southwest 3rd Avenue outside the Justice Center and the Federal Courthouse. During this time, the large group of a couple thousand people blocked Southwest 3rd Avenue, danced, and made speeches.

Around 10:15 p.m., members of the group were spotted bringing plywood to the Justice Center. At 10:40 p.m., members of the group started to kick the front doors of Central Precinct while others dragged a large metal fence to the west side of the Federal Courthouse. At 11 p.m., several group members kicked and pounded on plywood attached to the west exterior glass doors of the Federal Courthouse. The people who kicked and pounded on the plywood were using hammers, crowbars and other pry tools. These people carried bats and shields as well as wore helmets and gas masks. Soon after, at 11:05 p.m., the group breeched the west side doors of the Federal Courthouse.

At 11:12 p.m., Federal Law Enforcement began dispersing the crowd using crowd control munitions. The group moved westbound on Southwest Main Street, but soon after, the group returned back to Southwest 3rd Avenue. When the group returned to Southwest 3rd Avenue and Southwest Main Street, they aggressively ran towards the portico on the west side of the Federal Courthouse. At 11:25 p.m., Federal Law Enforcement once again dispersed the crowd.

At this point the Mayor departs the crowd shortly after midnight, now with the mayor no longer being available as an outlet...

Quote
Around 12:30 a.m., group members once again converged on the west side of the Federal Courthouse. This time, the group set a fire outside the west side doors located on the portico. Federal Law Enforcement exited the building and began to disperse the crowd.

At 12:45 a.m., the group collected fences and road barricades and began advancing on the Federal Courthouse using pieces of the fence as a shield. When people reached the portico on the west side of the Federal Courthouse they began stacking up pieces of the fence and barricades, which created a hazard to those who needed to exit the building.

Around 1:00 a.m., some people associated with the group opened a fire hydrant at Southwest 3rd Avenue and Southwest Taylor Street and added soap to the water causing a hazard downtown. Some other people downtown set several small fires while other people vandalized and spray painted both city, federal, and private property. At 1:27 a.m., another fire was lit outside an exit door on the south side of the Federal Courthouse and the group successfully tore off a large piece of plywood protecting some glass doors on the west side of the building. At 1:45 a.m., Federal Police Officers once again were forced to disperse the crowd west from the building. During the dispersal, a large fire was started in the middle of Lownsdale Square.

Over the next several hours, Federal Police Officers continued to disperse the crowd westbound and the group slowly dissipated.

Portland Police were not present during any of the activity described. Portland Police did not engage with any crowds and did not deploy any CS gas. No arrests were made by Portland Police.

TheDrake

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #153 on: July 23, 2020, 11:29:46 AM »
Deamon, I think we know where you stand, maybe we don't need 9 updates daily on how evil the violent anarchist protesters are, and how bad they need to be smacked in the head with batons. 2nd amendment types (not you) talk about how important it is to be able to violently oppose an oppressive government. Maybe this is that.

Want them to stop being violent? Address their concerns! Make real reform! Crackdowns never work in the end when enough people oppose the government.

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #154 on: July 23, 2020, 11:30:58 AM »
For a hearing test, very faint given all of the near field sound("f--- Ted Wheeler" and "Ted how're you getting the feds out?") there is an announcement of "You are on Federal property..." (and if you look to the left in the background, you can see light being cast by a fire)

https://twitter.com/ByMikeBaker/status/1286183509543931904

Feds come out, and to add confusion to the scene, it appears that protesters are adding their own fireworks into the mix.
https://twitter.com/ByMikeBaker/status/1286183952697266176

If you follow the thread, you can see him eventually get gassed.

DonaldD

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #155 on: July 23, 2020, 11:34:06 AM »
So in summary - some people opened a fire hydrant (and added soap!!!) graffiti was committed, a few fires were lit, and some plywood was torn off.

And the feds gassed the mayor and police commissioner of Portland.  They did not, as of last reporting, throw him into an unmarked van.

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #156 on: July 23, 2020, 11:40:36 AM »
Deamon, I think we know where you stand, maybe we don't need 9 updates daily on how evil the violent anarchist protesters are, and how bad they need to be smacked in the head with batons. 2nd amendment types (not you) talk about how important it is to be able to violently oppose an oppressive government. Maybe this is that.

Want them to stop being violent? Address their concerns! Make real reform! Crackdowns never work in the end when enough people oppose the government.

If they had concerns which were either coherent, or realistic, there'd be something to work with. What they want is neither realistic, or coherent.

The Federal Government will not withdraw from the state of Oregon so long as Oregon remains part of the United States. And as local and state leaders don't seem to be pushing for secession(as there is no local support for that), there isn't much to work with there. So, that's an unrealistic request.

Which just leaves "Defund the police" which for many of those protesters actually means abolish the police, which isn't even a Federal Issue with regards to local law enforcement, and we're at another unrealistic and incoherent request. Protesting at a Federal Building for the abolition of the Local PD is quite pointless?

I guess you could claim there is a "police brutality" argument to be made with their crowd control methods, but again, we've got a coherency and image problem here.

The feds only come out when they either barricade fire exits, or set large fires in locations that are problematic for the federal building. If they're goal is to protest and to seek peaceful resolution of the situation, perhaps abandoning certain tactics would be a good first step on the part of the protesters.

It certainly would do them wonders in winning sympathy, if not support, over from people on the law and order side of things. But as it stands, they're not being peaceful. They're also not being non-destructive.

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #157 on: July 23, 2020, 12:00:09 PM »
So in summary - some people opened a fire hydrant (and added soap!!!) graffiti was committed, a few fires were lit, and some plywood was torn off.

Don't forget trespass, protesters entered a secured area without authorization.

This is also the second night(consecutive) where they've being doing the soapy fire hydrant thing. Thing to remember here is the earlier:

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Flag Bearer - uses signs or a phone to signal to protesters when police are advancing or attacking
Cop watch - Protest supporters who use phones to record violent police and document police tactics and weaponry
Within the context of Hong Kong, I could see this as very valid, but it moves into borderline nefarious when applied within the US. Police here in the US don't normally attack, they respond and they normally advertise their approach very clearly in advance anyway.

And the "cop watch" needing to "document tactics" is another gigantic concern. What kind of "peaceful protester" in the US need to be concerned with developing tactics or counter-tactics to respond to police actions in regards to protests in the US? Peaceful protesters don't. Agitators certainly do though, and they're expecting a violent police response because they're going to do everything they can to create such a response. But that's another set of roles.

But speaking of police tactics..
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Online Comms - Online protesters who use social media apps like Signal and Telegram to report on police strategies and provide protesters with real-time updates.

In Hong Kong this makes a degree of sense, but in the United States?

A fire hydrant isn't concerning, multiple fire hydrants becomes another matter. Chances are the soapy fire hydrant is a trial balloon to see what kind of response they're getting from it. It has potential to start escalating sooner rather than later. Agitators have potential to accomplish more mayhem regarding fires if they can deprive the municipal water system of sufficient water pressure for use as a fire main. Granted, that's going to take a LOT of hydrants assuming a minimum 16 inch main supplying the area. But it is possible.

The other aspect about the soap is it creates potential slip and fall hazards. Which is the more immediately useful thing for the protesters. If they open up the hydrants and "soap" most of the escape routes from an area, it creates all kinds of opportunity to "bad optics" when the Feds try to disperse a crowd which then has to slow down to contend with the slip and fall hazard.

And the feds gassed the mayor and police commissioner of Portland.  They did not, as of last reporting, throw him into an unmarked van.

Did they have reason to suspect him, or someone dressed like him, to have been direct party to either acts of destruction of federal property, or attacks on a federal officer? If not, they had no reason to do so, besides which, aside from that one night, there doesn't seem to be any new reports about such events taking place.

DonaldD

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #158 on: July 23, 2020, 12:00:17 PM »
What's "funny" is that the presence of the stormtroopers actually reinvigorated the protests in general, but the most especially the more radical protesters prone to illegal activities.

Having them leave would improve the situation, but what is the chance that the stormtroopers will be told to leave, even if it would improve the "security" situation?

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #159 on: July 23, 2020, 12:03:24 PM »
At this stage, the only way this ends is they allow one or both of the federal buildings to be burned out.

The City of Portland trying to resolve it for over a month did nothing. The feds are only 3 weeks into their own presence, and the mis-step they made which energized things in a big way was the roadside snatchings.

TheDrake

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #160 on: July 23, 2020, 12:22:24 PM »
Deamon, I think we know where you stand, maybe we don't need 9 updates daily on how evil the violent anarchist protesters are, and how bad they need to be smacked in the head with batons. 2nd amendment types (not you) talk about how important it is to be able to violently oppose an oppressive government. Maybe this is that.

Want them to stop being violent? Address their concerns! Make real reform! Crackdowns never work in the end when enough people oppose the government.

If they had concerns which were either coherent, or realistic, there'd be something to work with. What they want is neither realistic, or coherent.

The Federal Government will not withdraw from the state of Oregon so long as Oregon remains part of the United States. And as local and state leaders don't seem to be pushing for secession(as there is no local support for that), there isn't much to work with there. So, that's an unrealistic request.

Which just leaves "Defund the police" which for many of those protesters actually means abolish the police, which isn't even a Federal Issue with regards to local law enforcement, and we're at another unrealistic and incoherent request. Protesting at a Federal Building for the abolition of the Local PD is quite pointless?

I guess you could claim there is a "police brutality" argument to be made with their crowd control methods, but again, we've got a coherency and image problem here.

The feds only come out when they either barricade fire exits, or set large fires in locations that are problematic for the federal building. If they're goal is to protest and to seek peaceful resolution of the situation, perhaps abandoning certain tactics would be a good first step on the part of the protesters.

It certainly would do them wonders in winning sympathy, if not support, over from people on the law and order side of things. But as it stands, they're not being peaceful. They're also not being non-destructive.

Well, here's the problem after repeated incidents of unarmed people being shot, people running away getting shot, people getting choked, tazed and beaten, with plenty of polite objections and more peaceful protests, nothing happened. Kaepernick took a knee and was reviled for it by nearly everyone in power, and accomplishing nothing. So don't you think perhaps they are going to their last resort, just as the Sons of Liberty did when they started tarring and feathering government officials?

Lloyd Perna

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #161 on: July 23, 2020, 01:36:13 PM »
https://twitter.com/BonnieSilkman/status/1286170974606389249

Their demands have been made.
  • Defund the Portland Police Bureau (PPB) by at least 50% and “reinvest into the communities, especially the black community.”
  • Free all protesters from jail
  • Get federal law enforcement officers out of Portlandl
  • Force Wheeler to resign

Does anyone actually believe ANY of those are going to happen?

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #162 on: July 23, 2020, 01:42:40 PM »
https://www.cato.org/blog/poll-62-americans-say-they-have-political-views-theyre-afraid-share

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A new Cato Institute/​YouGov national survey of 2,000 Americans finds that 62% of Americans say the political climate these days prevents them from saying things they believe because others might find them offensive. This is up from 2017 when 58% agreed with this statement. Majorities of Democrats (52%), independents (59%) and Republicans (77%) all agree they have political opinions they are afraid to share.­­

Strong liberals stand out, however, as the only political group who feel they can express themselves: 58% of staunch liberals feel they can say what they believe.

Of note in general, every category reported an increase over the 2017 numbers.
Strong liberals saw the biggest jump, from 30% reporting the need to self-censor to 42% now, a 12 point jump.
Liberals(45% to 53%), Moderates(57% to 64%), and conservatives(70% to 77% all saw 7 point jumps.

Strong conservatives oddly saw the smallest increase, but that is hardly re-assuring, as they moved from 76% to 77% which means Strong Conservatives are on par with normal Conservatives on feeling the need to self-censor.

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #163 on: July 23, 2020, 01:44:14 PM »
https://twitter.com/BonnieSilkman/status/1286170974606389249

Their demands have been made.
  • Defund the Portland Police Bureau (PPB) by at least 50% and “reinvest into the communities, especially the black community.”
  • Free all protesters from jail
  • Get federal law enforcement officers out of Portlandl
  • Force Wheeler to resign

Does anyone actually believe ANY of those are going to happen?

And how do you know that she(or the people running the projector) actually speaks for the collective on this? Remember, "AntiFa isn't an organization" so as such, there is no group organizing what their demands actually are.

Lloyd Perna

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #164 on: July 23, 2020, 01:53:50 PM »
This list was being projected on the Justice Center by protesters while Mayor Wheeler was addressing the crowd.  Looks like a BLM logo on it?  How does anyone know they "speak for the collective"?  Isn't that part of the problem with the idea of just giving them what they want? 

I think the vast majority of them have no idea what they want, they just want to be considered "Woke" by their peers which enables extremists to use them for their own ends.

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #165 on: July 23, 2020, 02:00:59 PM »
The "Light Mages" now have at least three LEO victims.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/portland-riots-federal-officers-blinded-lasers-fireworks-doxed

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“When officers responded to put out these fires, glass bottles were thrown and lasers – which can cause permanent blindness – were shined in their eyes,” Cline said. “We have three officers who currently have eye injuries and they may not recover sight in those eyes from those laser attacks.”

The FPS has purchased anti-laser glasses that federal officers are now wearing to prevent eye injuries.

Federal officers responded by deploying pepper balls and tear gas. Cline said officers observed one individual taking pictures of a water intake system to the Edith Green Federal Building, which is also under FPS protection. Earlier in the evening Monday night, a Twitter user said “So we can shut off the water to the buildings the feds are staying in to make it a nightmare for them.”


TheDrake

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #166 on: July 23, 2020, 02:11:27 PM »
The "Light Mages" now have at least three LEO victims.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/portland-riots-federal-officers-blinded-lasers-fireworks-doxed

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“When officers responded to put out these fires, glass bottles were thrown and lasers – which can cause permanent blindness – were shined in their eyes,” Cline said. “We have three officers who currently have eye injuries and they may not recover sight in those eyes from those laser attacks.”

The FPS has purchased anti-laser glasses that federal officers are now wearing to prevent eye injuries.

Federal officers responded by deploying pepper balls and tear gas. Cline said officers observed one individual taking pictures of a water intake system to the Edith Green Federal Building, which is also under FPS protection. Earlier in the evening Monday night, a Twitter user said “So we can shut off the water to the buildings the feds are staying in to make it a nightmare for them.”

Well, maybe they should stop beating on people and expecting them not to fight back.

yossarian22c

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #167 on: July 24, 2020, 09:45:31 AM »
https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/07/23/894953202/order-temporarily-blocks-feds-from-targeting-press-and-legal-observers-in-portla

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A federal judge has temporarily blocked federal law enforcement officers deployed to Portland, Ore., from targeting journalists and legal observers at the protests against police violence and racial injustice that have intensified in recent days.
...
The order details several examples of journalists, identifiable by press passes, clothing and gear, being fired upon, pepper sprayed and hit with batons by federal agents. They described being shot with pepper balls and what are identified as "less lethal munitions."

In one instance, Noah Berger, a photojournalist of 25 years on assignment for the Associated Press, describes being attacked repeatedly by federal agents with batons and pepper spray, even as he was clearly not participating in the protest and, in a later incident, leaving the area.

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #168 on: July 24, 2020, 10:54:20 AM »
Quote
In one instance, Noah Berger, a photojournalist of 25 years on assignment for the Associated Press, describes being attacked repeatedly by federal agents with batons and pepper spray, even as he was clearly not participating in the protest and, in a later incident, leaving the area.

Funny thing about this one, they're appealing to authority by citing Noah Berger's "25 years of experience" but ignore the more im iportant question:

How much experience does Noah Berger have in providing coverage in areas where civil strife and conflict is actively ongoing? And by "Civil strife" I mean riots, or civil wars?

It is my understanding, through reporting from a person who did cover civil unrest in person in Egypt, Ukraine, and a number of other locations, the major media outlets typically have a class(which he'd gone through) which those outlets required before sending them over seas into "hot zones." A requirement that many news outlets have likely been ignoring when it comes to events here in the US.... Especially if they've been buying into the whole hogwash reporting that's been going on about the protests in Portland being peaceful.

One of those things that class would teach a reporter is there are two places you do NOT want to be when violence is considered likely.
1) With the protesters. (You'll get hit with crowd control munitions)
or
2) In the immediate vicinity of the police. (You'll get hit with what the protesters are throwing at the police)

You either setup "well back" from the front lines of which-ever side you're reporting from. (Admittedly, getting behind the Federal Police lines is not possible in this case, as they're holing up inside buildings) Or you find somewhere that is perpendicular to the "protest line" and the "police line" and provide your coverage from there.

If you setup in the crowd, and the crowd gets violent, don't be shocked when you get hit with riot controls.

When they're using crowd control munitions, they're not going to be able to read/vet "your press credentials" from 20+ feet away, and anything they're likely to be able to see from 20+ feet away is also able to be faked, so watch out, and AntiFa has already demonstrated a willingness to either impersonate the press, or assert they are a member of the press even as they're being anything but a "neutral observer" like the press is allegedly supposed to be.

yossarian22c

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #169 on: July 24, 2020, 12:21:56 PM »
Quote
In one instance, Noah Berger, a photojournalist of 25 years on assignment for the Associated Press, describes being attacked repeatedly by federal agents with batons and pepper spray, even as he was clearly not participating in the protest and, in a later incident, leaving the area.
...
One of those things that class would teach a reporter is there are two places you do NOT want to be when violence is considered likely.
1) With the protesters. (You'll get hit with crowd control munitions)
or
2) In the immediate vicinity of the police. (You'll get hit with what the protesters are throwing at the police)
...

There were other antidotes as well.

Quote
The order also detailed the story of photojournalist Jungho Kim, who has covered protests in California and Hong Kong and has experience "distinguishing himself from a protester." Kim was recording protesters on the scene when federal agents pushed them away from the area.

"He was around 30 feet away from federal agents, standing still, taking pictures, with no one around him," reads the order. "He asserts that suddenly and without warning, he was shot in the chest just below his heart with a less lethal munition. Because he was wearing a ballistic vest, he was uninjured. He also witnessed, and photographed, federal agents firing munitions into a group of press and legal observers."

Trump didn't send in the Feds to deescalate. Trump needs violence from these protests to scare people into voting for him.

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #170 on: July 25, 2020, 02:29:08 PM »
https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/07/24/895285174/judge-denies-oregons-request-for-restraining-order-against-federal-officers

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Mosman noted that the state presented only two examples as evidence, despite painting a picture in its complaint of "numerous protesters being seized from the streets of Portland by unidentified agents."

He also said that the state did not present evidence of any official orders or policies behind the seizures, nor any evidence that they are in widespread use.

Mosman noted that it is not unusual for people involved in major protests to allege that police crossed a "constitutional line" in their interactions with protesters, and for some of those people to file lawsuits seeking money damages and injunctive relief.

"There is a well-established body of law paving the way for such lawsuits to move forward in federal court," he wrote. "This is not such a lawsuit."

And to correct the record on the "unidentified federal agents" line from a week ago?

They're not.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/07/unidentified-federal-agents-detaining-protesters-in-portland.html

Oddly enough, that "NZ39" on the guy's shoulder in the headline image? That's his badge number.
The insignia below that identifies the unit he is attached to.

Which isn't to mention the whole "POLICE" markings on the front and back of his tactical uniform.

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #171 on: July 26, 2020, 10:05:01 AM »
https://twitter.com/PortlandPolice/status/1287251924421505027

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PPB has seen a number of people purporting to be “media” or “press” who are not in recent weeks. This is concerning and takes away from legitimate media efforts.

And as a catch up on the other summaries:
Morning of July 24:
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=251024

Morning of July 25:
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=251027
New highlight as the Feds had a more effective fence in place:
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At 10:58 p.m. people began shaking the fence surrounding the Federal Courthouse. Others shot fireworks over the fence. Federal law enforcement gave announcements over a public address system. At about 11:04 p.m. federal law enforcement came out in front of the Federal Courthouse and attempted to disperse the crowd using various munitions.

Many in the crowd had gas masks, shields, leaf blowers, power tools, fireworks and lasers. Hundreds of people remained along the fence attempting to pull or push it over. Some attempted to cut the fence with power tools. People shot fireworks and threw objects over the fence at federal law enforcement. This activity went on at varying levels of intensity for over three hours.

There are other videos showing people working on the fence with welding equipment trying to cut their way through it.

Morning of July 26:
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=251030

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A group of about two hundred gathered outside the Portland Police Association offices in north Portland. They blocked N. Lombard Avenue for about an hour. They used cars and trucks to block adjacent streets. People from this group pulled sections of a chain link fence across N. Lombard Ave. Portland Police gave public address announcements to clear the street to allow traffic through. Because of the fencing and crowd blocking the street, Portland Fire & Rescue had to reroute emergency vehicles responding to a residential fire nearby. Slowly this group broke up and walked out of the neighborhood.
And the escalation of efforts to defeat the perimeter fence continued, the protesters won:
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The largest group gathered on SW 3rd Avenue outside the federal courthouse and the Justice Center and the nearby parks and streets. There were thousands gathered. Throughout the night some people in this crowd spent their time shaking the fence around the building, throwing rocks, bottles, and assorted debris over the fence, shining lasers through the fence, firing explosive fireworks into the area blocked by the fence, and using power tools to try to cut through the fence. People wore gas masks, carried shields, hockey sticks, leaf blowers, flags, and umbrellas specifically to thwart police in crowd dispersal or attempt to conceal criminal acts. People against the fence sprayed unknown liquids through it toward the courthouse. People tied rope to the fence and attempted to pull it down.

This activity continued as thousands remained outside along SW 3rd Avenue for hours.
At about 1:03 a.m. people in the crowd attached a chain to the fence and with many people pulling managed to pull a section of it down. People began lighting fires along SW 3rd Avenue. People climbed over the fence to get close to the federal courthouse. People continued to launch mortar style fireworks at ground level that were exploding near others.

But something else returned to the menu for the Portland Police last night:
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Portland Police declared a riot based on the conduct of people in the crowd and gave repeated warnings that anyone who remained may be subject to arrest or citation and may be subject to force including impact weapons or tear gas.
In previous weeks that was typically a warning that the Federal Agents might use tear gas...
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During that time people threw bottles, paint balloons, and other debris at Portland Police officers. People shot mortar style fireworks as Portland Police officers from ground level and from parking garages. Portland Police used munitions, including CS gas.

/gasp

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Portland Police disengaged from the crowds at about 2:25 a.m. to see if people would keep leaving the closed area. Over the next hour, the groups mostly dissipated. Several arrests were made during the dispersal. This release will be updated as information becomes available.

 ??? ::)
« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 10:18:02 AM by TheDeamon »

LetterRip

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #172 on: July 26, 2020, 12:21:18 PM »
PPB doesn't determine who 'press' are, the Constitution and SC rulings do.  Bloggers are legally press/journalists and enjoy both their protections and privileges https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/01/us-court-bloggers-are-journalists/283225/


TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #173 on: July 26, 2020, 01:46:49 PM »
PPB doesn't determine who 'press' are, the Constitution and SC rulings do.  Bloggers are legally press/journalists and enjoy both their protections and privileges https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/01/us-court-bloggers-are-journalists/283225/

So anyone with a twitter, facebook, or twitch account that either "blogs" or streams from the protest is now a member of the press corps?

You just set the bar so low that anyone with a smartphone in hand should be considered part of the press.

LetterRip

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #174 on: July 26, 2020, 03:05:10 PM »
So anyone with a twitter, facebook, or twitch account that either "blogs" or streams from the protest is now a member of the press corps?

No, if they post cat pics, recipes, etc. probably not. If they are describing and reporting on the protests - probably yes.

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You just set the bar so low that anyone with a smartphone in hand should be considered part of the press.

The courts set the bar.  I don't see how it could be set any other way though.  Some reporting by unpaid volunteers is vastly superior to commercial reporting. I'd probably be ok with requirements reasonable efforts at fact checking etc.  Of course those same would apply to all news sources.

If the blogger or vlogger breaks the law they will be prosecuted like any other criminal just as any other press

Fenring

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #175 on: July 26, 2020, 04:06:01 PM »
LR, if that argument holds water then it also nullifies any relevance to mentioning "press members" being detained or harassed. If anyone is press then it means nothing.

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #176 on: July 26, 2020, 10:59:36 PM »
LR, if that argument holds water then it also nullifies any relevance to mentioning "press members" being detained or harassed. If anyone is press then it means nothing.

And creates all kinds of fun when the person in question puts away the phone to start doing some property destruction and/or violence of their own before pulling their phone out again to resume "reporting."

They're press, you can't touch them, right?

Portland Police has observed people doing that already.

NobleHunter

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #177 on: July 27, 2020, 09:27:29 AM »
If there's no independent verification, then the more accurate phrasing is "Portland Police claims to have observed people doing that."

TheDrake

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #178 on: July 27, 2020, 10:58:15 AM »
I think I get it, Deamon. Smash them all. The ones throwing bottles, setting fires, standing near them, dressing like them, standing a block away, trying to stop them, etc. If anyone takes any violent actions then it is open season on anyone and everyone to get tossed into vans, even if they are medics or members of the unambiguous press. Is that about right?

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #179 on: July 27, 2020, 01:42:11 PM »
If there's no independent verification, then the more accurate phrasing is "Portland Police claims to have observed people doing that."

There has been, you just had one such example of that in this very thread. Protesters are dressing as press in an attempt to avoid being on the receiving end of police actions.

NobleHunter

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #180 on: July 27, 2020, 01:51:51 PM »
https://twitter.com/PortlandPolice/status/1287251924421505027

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PPB has seen a number of people purporting to be “media” or “press” who are not in recent weeks. This is concerning and takes away from legitimate media efforts.

That's not the same as " the person in question puts away the phone to start doing some property destruction and/or violence of their own before pulling their phone out again to resume 'reporting.'"


NobleHunter

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #182 on: July 27, 2020, 08:47:40 PM »
https://twitter.com/wokal_distance/status/1287688790400614400

I wonder what this guy's opinion on the Hong Kong protests were. Or are organized protests only good when foreigners do them?

wmLambert

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #183 on: July 27, 2020, 09:31:16 PM »
What a wasted thread. No one argues for sanity - only for personal interests and how they can spin activists rioting and looting and make it into an accusation against Trump. There are no John Lennons and Yoko Onos urging peace against war - only mealy-mouthed pretense that it is all about racial justice, and in the process stopping all the betterment in racial relations that has been ongoing.

...But that's the strategy. They can't regain political power when the other side does all the right things, so they do the best they can to sabotage and make things look bad.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 09:34:46 PM by wmLambert »

Wayward Son

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #184 on: July 28, 2020, 11:23:56 AM »
I'm sorry if showing Navy veterans being beaten with a club for asking a question, or 14-year-old girls being piled on by helmeted thugs is just us trying to "make things look bad."  (I loved how that one officer tried to step on her hand while looking around, just to help restrain her.) For most people, they make things look bad without explanation.

Now here's a question to contemplate:  how could Trump threaten to send almost 70% of the DHS officers to cities to quell riots?  How could the normal tasks at DHS be performed with so many personnel diverted from their regular jobs?

Macus Ranum has a simple solution:  many (if not most) of these guys may be hired mercenaries--aka "Blackwater."

Makes sense.  Hire extra law enforcement personnel to cover the short-term increase.  Who cares if they are not trained police officers.  They are fighting criminals, after all.  If a few laws are unintentionally (or intentionally due to special circumstances) broken, who cares?  Order must be preserved.  Protests must be quelled.  Rights are secondary.

So when you look at these videos of people being beaten-up and hauled into unmarked vans, remember that you may not be seeing actual police officers holding the "thin blue line."  They very well may be hired mercenaries, similar to those who kept order in so well in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan.  Just think: your sons and daughter may soon be treated as well as we treated the Iraqis and Afghanistan.  Just warms your heart, doesn't it? 

Or something down around your gut...

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #185 on: July 28, 2020, 12:00:46 PM »
I'm sorry if showing Navy veterans being beaten with a club for asking a question, or 14-year-old girls being piled on by helmeted thugs is just us trying to "make things look bad."  (I loved how that one officer tried to step on her hand while looking around, just to help restrain her.) For most people, they make things look bad without explanation.

As a Navy veteran, nothing about having served renders a person immune from being stupid.

Standing around to peacefully "Ask a question" after having just heard multiple orders over several minutes to disperse and vacate the area due to the assembly being declared "unlawful"(a riot) isn't very bright. And his Navy training, if he bothered to remember any of it, should have told him that hanging around was not a good idea. Then again, I guess he could have been a pit snipe, in which case he probably never received that portion of force protection training, as he'd never be standing any of those types of security watches. Although he should have received the training on "situational awareness" all the same as that would have applied to personal liberty excursions off the ship in foreign ports, and the pit snipes did get that training....

yossarian22c

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #186 on: July 28, 2020, 12:06:29 PM »
I'm sorry if showing Navy veterans being beaten with a club for asking a question, or 14-year-old girls being piled on by helmeted thugs is just us trying to "make things look bad."  (I loved how that one officer tried to step on her hand while looking around, just to help restrain her.) For most people, they make things look bad without explanation.

As a Navy veteran, nothing about having served renders a person immune from being stupid.

Standing around to peacefully "Ask a question" after having just heard multiple orders over several minutes to disperse and vacate the area due to the assembly being declared "unlawful"(a riot) isn't very bright. And his Navy training, if he bothered to remember any of it, should have told him that hanging around was not a good idea. Then again, I guess he could have been a pit snipe, in which case he probably never received that portion of force protection training, as he'd never be standing any of those types of security watches. Although he should have received the training on "situational awareness" all the same as that would have applied to personal liberty excursions off the ship in foreign ports, and the pit snipes did get that training....

So the appropriate response for one man standing around after being asked to leave is to break his hand instead of arrest him?

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #187 on: July 28, 2020, 12:20:44 PM »
So the appropriate response for one man standing around after being asked to leave is to break his hand instead of arrest him?

Breaking his hand was a disproportionate response, and not appropriate.

His having his hand broken however, does not retroactively make his own behavior appropriate either.

Both sides were in the wrong on that one.

DonaldD

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #188 on: July 28, 2020, 12:31:13 PM »
So, because men in camouflage assaulted a man in plain sight, and other men wearing camouflage did nothing to stop the attackers, all camouflage-wearing men in the area should then have immediately dispersed and gone home, so as not to be confused for the attackers - or risk immediate arrest, and detention in unmarked vehicles, correct?

Wayward Son

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #189 on: July 28, 2020, 12:34:13 PM »
No one, I think, is arguing that either side are "saints."  The rioters definitely need to be quelled.  The destruction and violence by some of the protesters must be addressed and stopped.

But the response has not been appropriate.  Police have been overreacting, if not outright being thugs.  And while I do not condone lawlessness on the part of the rioters, I am not responsible for it.  We have even seen some protesters trying to quell the rioters themselves.  (See, for example, the link to the guy who was ready to attack police with a hammer from earlier in this thread.  Did everyone notice the woman who was there who tried to pull the guy away from the door before the police burst out?  Compare that to the police who walked over the 70-yr-old man bleeding from his ear...)  The actions of some do not condemn everyone.

However, we are all partially responsible for the actions of the police.  They are our legal representatives.  They are acting on our behalf, with our authorization.  If they act in a lawless fashion, we are responsible to put an end to it.

Condemning the actions of the rioters is a given.  That is why we have police.  But we must not excuse lawless or inappropriate actions of the police just because  there are actions by the "other side" that are wrong.  Two wrongs don't make a right, you don't have to ignore the law to uphold it, and we have some control and responsibility for the actions of the police.

Remember, taking responsibility for the actions of the police is what these protests are all about.

DonaldD

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #190 on: July 28, 2020, 12:39:02 PM »
It really isn't a stretch to think that this is exactly the response that Trump wanted when sending in the stormtroopers - violent video that can be used to rile up his base against protesters and especially against BLM which is becoming more and more popular with the general population, video which Trump is now using in campaign spots.

wmLambert

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #191 on: July 28, 2020, 12:39:33 PM »
As we all know, but a few here try to explain away, The Left is responsible for the attacks in all the Democrat-run cities, and they are funded by George Soros and other sponsors of anti-American activists - the rioters and looters. In proof of that see https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/07/breaking-exclusive-early-july-blm-contributions-moved-tides-center-george-soros-linked-entity/. Black Lives Matter is not about George Floyd or racial justice, it is about taking down the President by sabotaging the economy, the same way that The Wuhan Flu is being used.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 12:42:10 PM by wmLambert »

DonaldD

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #192 on: July 28, 2020, 12:41:48 PM »
Whenever you say something like "As we all know", you generally follow that opening with something that most people know to be untrue... your consistency is commendable.

Wayward Son

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #193 on: July 28, 2020, 12:50:47 PM »
The main problem, wm, is that the most obvious anti-American activities going on right now are from Trump, sending in unidentified para-military troops to beat and arrest people in unmarked vans, in spite of the pointed objections of the local mayors and governors--actions that seem far more natural in a dictatorship than in a democracy.

And while conspiracy theories about BLM and the Trump Virus seem natural, the dead bodies from both are proof that they aren't some manufactured crises.  They are very few people that will give their lives to make Trump look bad.  (He does that so well himself. :) )

wmLambert

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #194 on: July 28, 2020, 01:10:42 PM »
Whenever you say something like "As we all know", you generally follow that opening with something that most people know to be untrue... your consistency is commendable.

I also use the term "Projection" because it is appropriate for the issue. You make the mistake of using "Laughter by Intimidation" (A debate fallacy) to pretend you stand upon a font of all-knowledge and everyone agrees with you, and everyone else is to be ridiculed. I use the term "As we all know" to point out the fact that your Leftists opinions are not believed even by the people you pretend believe them so fervently. They know the opposite of what they decry, don't they? No one thinks George Floyd or racial justice iis the reason for the protests. The Democrats were honing their swords on the sidelines waiting for something they could jump on to use as a weapon against Trump. Trump - not the police. When Floyd resisted arrest and threw himself on the ground, a small, timid, and untrained police officer kneeled on his neck and killed him. That was the catalyst they needed. The Soros-sponsored activists appeared and overran the drummed-up protests, and the Democrats had their issue. No one on your side believe what you are preaching. The protests are counter-productive and have set back decades of civil Rights improvements by the Justice system. If left to your party, we would still be back in Jim Crow times.

The link I gave you shows how BLM falls under the Soros umbrella. There is no refutation of that on your part, nor any consideration. other than knee-jerk insult and intimidation. But that is your role, isn't it? I wonder how many here are posting under false pretenses and sticking together even when they know they are on the wrong side. You can't all be so blind and coherent in your posts without having the intelligence to know better. The religious fervor of your beliefs are to be admired - but you should be smart enough to question them.

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #195 on: July 28, 2020, 01:16:37 PM »
Remember, taking responsibility for the actions of the police is what these protests are all about.

sorry, but the Portland protests, especially the ones that continue past about 10:00PM, are not about BLM or taking responsibility.

They're about psychological warfare and provoking police response to their criminal behavior in the hopes that they'll get the occasion to catch an officer responding in an inappropriate manner so they can then use that footage generate propaganda to perpetuate their cause and potentially gain more converts to their cause. (respond properly 99 times out of 100, they won't remember the 99, everybody will fixate on the 1; and that 1 event is all the agitators need)

Now it currently is "mutually beneficial" to the two extremes, but the protesters are gambling the sympathetic and complicit media will spin things in their favor. But sadly for them, the Media's habit of distortion and lies where it concerns a sitting president who has his own distortion and lies problem is highly unlikely to result in their desired outcome.

People need to stop providing aid and cover for these operatives, otherwise we will be seeing some flavor of civil war sooner rather than later.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 01:18:51 PM by TheDeamon »

TheDrake

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #196 on: July 28, 2020, 01:32:19 PM »
wmLambert, you become a bigger caricature of yourself with every new post. From the preposterous statement that no one thinks protests are about racial justice, to the fact that in addition to your wild charac terization of the Floyd incident itself, to the concept that segregation would return with Democrats in power.

wmLambert

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #197 on: July 28, 2020, 01:36:02 PM »
The main problem, wm, is that the most obvious anti-American activities going on right now are from Trump, sending in unidentified para-military troops to beat and arrest people in unmarked vans, in spite of the pointed objections of the local mayors and governors--actions that seem far more natural in a dictatorship than in a democracy.

And while conspiracy theories about BLM and the Trump Virus seem natural, the dead bodies from both are proof that they aren't some manufactured crises.  They are very few people that will give their lives to make Trump look bad.  (He does that so well himself. :) )

Total nonsense. No obvious anti-American actions from Trump at all. The objections from Mayors and Councils who allow the unrest are just CYA. Trump's record on Coronavirus is great. Why does the Left condemn his laudatory record? Oh wait - could it be to destroy the economy and affect the election? Of course it is.

DonaldD

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #198 on: July 28, 2020, 02:04:59 PM »
sorry, but the Portland protests, especially the ones that continue past about 10:00PM, are not about BLM or taking responsibility.

They're about psychological warfare and provoking police response to their criminal behavior in the hopes that they'll get the occasion to catch an officer responding in an inappropriate manner so they can then use that footage generate propaganda to perpetuate their cause and potentially gain more converts to their cause. (respond properly 99 times out of 100, they won't remember the 99, everybody will fixate on the 1; and that 1 event is all the agitators need)
Yes, they are 🙂. However, the media you trust only present those bits that reinforce your predispositions.

There is no question whatsoever that some protesters are there only to provoke, some even violently, and many others are there in response to the stormtroopers that have been deployed (and some of the anti-stormtrooper protesters are also acting provocatively.)

But the vast majority of protesters are non-violent, even after 10:00pm, and yes, some non-violent protesters are also hoping for and even expecting overreactions and violence by the stormtroopers

yossarian22c

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #199 on: July 28, 2020, 02:07:41 PM »
Trump's record on Coronavirus is great. Why does the Left condemn his laudatory record?

1) 4.3 Million confirmed infections.
2) 148,000 confirmed dead.
3) Increasing rate of infection in over 1/2 of the country.
4) Trump downplayed the pandemic early on.
5) Trump touted hydroxicloroquin.
6) Trump discouraged mask usage (which is being shown to be the most effective while being the least disruptive control measure).

I could go on but all of the reasons would wash over you or somehow be spun into how great Trump actually is.